Quote from: RPGPunditYes, I can get on board with that. I've certainly seen 150 page RPGs that manage to stuff in more useful playability than other games do with 300-400 pages.

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Quote from: JongWKWhat about you?

Oh, here's one thing I hope would go away: nostalgia.  I'm freakin' tired of "good old days" talk.  The good old days are now.

I had some good old days, but I had some bad old days, too, so I don't wish to go back to old days at all. For example, I had a game group where I ran my most fun, satisfying campaign ever, with the players the most invested. But then I ran another campaign with three of the four same players, and it was a disaster, and the game group imploded, leaving me with just one of the original three, and not the new fourth, either.

I think that most of us, if we think back on our old game experiences, will have a similar balance - not necessarily those extremes of awesome and shit, but good and bad balanced.

So like Anemone, I'm focused on today.

Now, what would I like to see go away? Premature speculation. I realise it happens when you're young, but really it's quite embarassing to watch. You'll find out what the game's like when it comes out, and it'll come out when it comes out, some day. Patience, Grasshopper

Quote from: Consonant DudeI'll raise your "cost per page" with the even more idiotic "cost per words". This was particularly prevalent with goofy, bearded gaming-dinosaurs in the 80s but unfortunately survived for a long time. I remember long flame wars in the early RPG.net days where basement-dwelling money-pinchers were whining pointlessly at the dreaded "white margins". As if anyone with a brain gives a flying fuck.

It makes me want to physically punch the clueless person.

This sort of miserly whining seems especially common among RPGers. I don't hear wargamers or euro boardgamers complain about cost per page/pound nearly as much as RPG players.

Not sure why that is. It seems a lot of hardcore RPGers have a need for a constant supply of new content. Doesn't seem to matter if it's especially good either - they just need their regular book fix. So they'll spend $25 a month on crappy products, rather than save for a couple months for a quality $50 product. I also get the impression RPGers are poorer than other gamers, but their relative poverty doesn't stop them from having a very high sense of entitlement.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI wish the mania for expensive hardbounds would go away, or at least loosen its grip on the buying public enough to where publishers like WotC would find it worthwhile to produce less expensive, more convenient softcovers. I'd love to see more "pocket editions" of game books, like those produced for Savage Worlds and Conan.

I'll take your "expensive hardbounds" and raise "full colour illustrations". I like black and white! It looks great! It is very fitting for certain games! And it is cheaper, which means you can even hire better artists to do it!

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI wish the mania for expensive hardbounds would go away, or at least loosen its grip on the buying public enough to where publishers like WotC would find it worthwhile to produce less expensive, more convenient softcovers. I'd love to see more "pocket editions" of game books, like those produced for Savage Worlds and Conan.

I don't! I love my hardcover books. They just feel more...."real". If I have to choose between cheap-ass black 'n white softcover, or hardcover book with high production values, then I prefer the hardcover. That's just how I roll. :cool:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI don't! I love my hardcover books. They just feel more...."real". If I have to choose between cheap-ass black 'n white softcover, or hardcover book with high production values, then I prefer the hardcover. That's just how I roll. :cool:

Problem is, when every book is done as a hardcover, it greatly increases the shelf space needed. It's fine if one only has a few books, but if one has more than a dozen or so, it makes a difference.

Well, hardcover has at least some practical use, as it increases the durability of the books.
Overall I agree though that RPGs should get away from expensive glossy full-color and should be more aimed to be cheap practical tools.

I'll raise this by one more thing that should go away: "Useless fluff". Be it in-game fiction, description of the cuisine of a certain county or thrown-in gothic band quotes, they don't add to the value of the game but take away valuable space that could be filled with something actually useful.

Not that an in-game perspective isn't a viable perspective for some information texts (Sprawl Survival Guide for Shadowrun is a good example of that), and not that designers shouldn't aim to make their texts enjoyable to read rather then making them as interesting to read as a cooking book, but it should never be at the cost of usefulness.

Quote from: AnemoneOh, here's one thing I hope would go away: nostalgia.  I'm freakin' tired of "good old days" talk.  The good old days are now.

Whereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.

Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.

Quote from: Old GeezerWhereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.

Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.

Oh, man.  I hate that.  I play Rifts, Rolemaster, Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and Palladium Fantasy (among other games).  So you know I hear it.

Quote from: Old GeezerWhereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.

Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.

Nothing incompatible about both viewpoints. I like new games, I like old games, but mostly I like new games that retain the qualities of the old games while introducing their own new twists.

-clash

Quote from: JongWKJudging a game for its "cost per page," as if you were only buying a stack of paper sheets.

Feh. This would be a valid point if you were only weighing cost per page.

When manufacturers try to sell my a 96 page B&W hardcover for $40 or somesuch, they deserve to get dinged.

Quote from: SkyrockI'll raise this by one more thing that should go away: "Useless fluff". Be it in-game fiction, description of the cuisine of a certain county or thrown-in gothic band quotes, they don't add to the value of the game but take away valuable space that could be filled with something actually useful.

IMO such things are out of place in a rulebook, or the rules section of a game that combines rules and setting. However, limited and thoughtful quotes to set scene and tone are helpful in a book or chapter that's about a setting, and what the people in a country eat, how they dress, and what behaviour they consider polite or rude when being greeted (for example) are very useful things to know in text about that country.

Quote from: SkyrockI'll raise this by one more thing that should go away: "Useless fluff". Be it in-game fiction, description of the cuisine of a certain county or thrown-in gothic band quotes, they don't add to the value of the game but take away valuable space that could be filled with something actually useful.

Not that an in-game perspective isn't a viable perspective for some information texts (Sprawl Survival Guide for Shadowrun is a good example of that), and not that designers shouldn't aim to make their texts enjoyable to read rather then making them as interesting to read as a cooking book, but it should never be at the cost of usefulness.

As a writer and publisher, I've found out that for every player who hates fluff, there's another who needs it, and is lost without it. As an old grognard, I always despised it, but I now put it in every game in small amounts. I just can't write it myself, being no hand at fiction at all. If I keep it limited, us grognards only grumble a little, while the younguns only sigh a bit at the sparseness, and don't curse the lack. I blame White Wolf...

And no, fluff doesn't include necessary setting descriptions.

-clash

Small fonts. Especially on non-white background. Some people have eye conditions. Reading small fonts is a chore.
Game fiction. And I'm not a fan of fictional characters introducing me to the setting either. Make it as short and to the point as possible.