< devil's advocate >

If Hit Points aren't, exclusively, physical damage then it works, conceptually, much like Savage Worlds' "Shaken" status.  Thus a Fighter's ability to do "damage" is really their ability to reduce their enemy's ability to fight back, which could be accomplished in many ways.  Going back to Savage Worlds terminology, one could use a "Trick" to cause obtain a Shaken result on an opponent.



That's what is sounds like to me.  Not agreeing with it, but that's my guess as to the designer's thought process.

Quote from: architect.zeroThus a Fighter's "second wind" could be likened to getting his bearings back or an adrenaline rush or whatever.  No magical trappings are necessary in order to recover Hit Points if Hit Points still don't mean physical damage, exclusively.

Yeah, I really can't understand the bitching & moaning surrounding this concept.

We already know hit points are abstract and don't really represent physical damage.

Why should it require magic powerz to get them back?

-O

Quote from: obrynWe already know hit points are abstract and don't really represent physical damage.

Ummmm....when did this happen?  I mean, I know they are abstract; but I've always understood them to be an abstract of physical damage. So the two parts of this sentence don't seem to go together, for me.

Quote from: James J SkachUmmmm....when did this happen?  I mean, I know they are abstract; but I've always understood them to be an abstract of physical damage. So the two parts of this sentence don't seem to go together, for me.

The topic remains something like the "Divine Substance" debate from early Christian theology (same substance, different substance, or similar substance?), or, at best, like the parable of the three blind monks touching different parts of an elephant.  

!i!

Quote from: James J SkachUmmmm....when did this happen?  I mean, I know they are abstract; but I've always understood them to be an abstract of physical damage. So the two parts of this sentence don't seem to go together, for me.

Since always, as far as I know.  Sadly, I don't have the books with me I'd need for a quote.  They incorporate stamina, luck, and actual physical damage.

Unless you think a guy can take a hit from a giant's axe without slowing down, that is.

-O

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe topic remains something like the "Divine Substance" debate from early Christian theology (same substance, different substance, or similar substance?), or, at best, like the parable of the three blind monks touching different parts of an elephant.  

!i!

Yup.  Definitely one of the eternal questions of D&D: "What are Hit Points?"

Eternally debated to no end.  (I'm in the ultra-abstract "they're combat advantage/disadvantage until negatives" camp.)

edit (on preview): Obryn, I don't really recall if there ever was a definitive answer.  I'd love to see one, that's for sure.

I'll do a Hit Point review, like the Progression of Gnomes, tonight.

My wife will be thrilled....

Oh, Second Wind I do remember, and so long as that's a) a feat-like thing, b) restricted to Fighters, I'm OK with it. But if it's across the board, well, I wouldn't even bother buying the books after all.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityOh, Second Wind I do remember, and so long as that's a) a feat-like thing, b) restricted to Fighters, I'm OK with it. But if it's across the board, well, I wouldn't even bother buying the books after all.

In Star Wars Saga Edition, everyone can do it.

That's all, I'm back outta here

Quote from: obrynSince always, as far as I know.  Sadly, I don't have the books with me I'd need for a quote.  They incorporate stamina, luck, and actual physical damage.

Unless you think a guy can take a hit from a giant's axe without slowing down, that is.

From the pen of Gygax himself (I'm sure James's summary thread will have much more detail on this):

Quote from: 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, 6th Printing, Page 34, "Character Hit Points"Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors.

The section goes on to explain how it's ludicrous to imagine that a 10th level fighter with 55 hit points can take 11 blows which would cause instant death to a 5 HP man-at-arms, and points out that the majority of the hit points of high level characters must be assumed to represent skill, luck, and magical factors.

I would argue that a "second wind" from an adrenalin rush would represent regaining some of the second category of hit points identified by the Blessed Gygax, those representing factors aside from actual physical damage; a trained warrior, after all, can presumably push past the "pain barrier" so widely-reported by athletes (and experienced by myself) to reach new heights of exertion.

Not much more, Warthur - except that actual text of the "ludicrous" explanation.

It's here.

Quote from: grubmanIn Star Wars Saga Edition, everyone can do it.

That's all, I'm back outta here

You devil! Are you trying to get people worked up?

If you're going to have a second-wind that lets you regenerate some of your hit points, you're really changing the entire thing.  Why not let the characters stop, rest for 10 minute, catch their breath and get back some more hit points?

What about the other direction?  Wouldn't being cold, hungry, and tired seriously affect a character's hit points?

And wouldn't having few remaining hit points affect your ability not just in combat, but doing other things as well?

I'm not opposed to these ideas -- some are things I'm doing for my own game -- but it's not really D&D.

Quote from: StuartAnd wouldn't having few remaining hit points affect your ability not just in combat, but doing other things as well?

If it's anything like Star Wars Saga, there are rules for that.  Something like threshold value or similar if I remember correctly.

Quote from: StuartWhat about the other direction?  Wouldn't being cold, hungry, and tired seriously affect a character's hit points?

That would be the much maligned Fatigue Points from RQIII.  A very clever idea, really, but quite fiddly.

!i!