Quote from: James McMurrayGot a link? I'd be interested to see how that discussion went.

Wizards Thread.
Mearls' Post.

Mmmm. Actually this is were I leave the bus. The way they discuss aggro is showing of how much they are looking into WoW.

But I might even DM this. For newbies and converts. So I hope they really pull this off and make a game that is attractive to teenagers and WoWers (which are older, mind you). Because it already sucks as D&D, it better be good at being the big Converter and bringer of new players.

Frankly, I'm vaguely unsettled by 4e because not only are they changing the rules for the game, but it sounds like they're changing the D&D meta-setting and cosmology as well.

If the rules are significantly different, and the implied setting is significantly different, then it isn't D&D any more, aside from the brand. The core rules of 3e were drastically different from previous editions, but the important basics were intact. The planar cosmology was essentially intact, Vancian magic was alive and well, the nine-level spell system continued chugging on, we still rolled our saving throws, it was never taken for granted that core campaigns were thickly populated by PCs taking the form of quasi-Judeo-Christian earthly representatives in the form of eladrin and tieflings, and of course, we had our precious class, level, ability score, and hit point system.

It sounds like 4e will drastically change this to the point that's it's just some random fantasy game, rather than D&D. I never thought I'd say or even think something like this, and thought I'd accept a new edition wholeheartedly, but frankly, the bits I've seen make me feel disappointed.

At this point, Warhammer almost feels more like D&D to me than 4e. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambFrankly, I'm vaguely unsettled by 4e because not only are they changing the rules for the game, but it sounds like they're changing the D&D meta-setting and cosmology as well.

I assume that for "D&D" above we should read "Planescape", since the whole metasetting/cosmology bit was a Planscape invention that jars badly with several other settings and is explicitely ignored in others.

Quote from: TrevelyanI assume that for "D&D" above we should read "Planescape", since the whole metasetting/cosmology bit was a Planscape invention that jars badly with several other settings and is explicitely ignored in others.

As of 3e, there is no officially supported PS, and the great wheel predated Planescape.

Setting is a different kettle of fish than metasetting, however. They are changing things in the metasetting that have been pretty much accepted in the variant settings of FR and Eberron, like what's a demon and what's a devil.

I see where sacrificial limb is coming from. Specific settings diverging from the metasetting is of little consequence to me, because support for prior metasetting elements is not compromised in the base of the game. If I play Eberron, I accept that there are certain things in the metasetting that will not be used, just like I accept if I make my own setting that diverges from the metasetting, has my own inventions instead of creatures like demon and illithids and beholders, then I have to do the work to create them myself.

But if I make my own setting wherein the metasetting I have been using since 1e suddenly changes, all the sudden support for creatures and conventions that have existed for some time suddenly vanishes, my succubi villains becomes devils, tiefling PCs wander the streets, cats start sleeping with dogs, and I'm left with the task of either scrapping my setting (which is what WotC expects you to do) or do the work yourself to bridge the gap.

Or, you know, just not upgrade because the apparent benefits are outweighed by the costs. Which is where I am sitting.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut if I make my own setting wherein the metasetting I have been using since 1e suddenly changes, all the sudden support for creatures and conventions that have existed for some time suddenly vanishes, my succubi villains becomes devils, tiefling PCs wander the streets, cats start sleeping with dogs, and I'm left with the task of either scrapping my setting (which is what WotC expects you to do) or do the work yourself to bridge the gap.

Or, you know, just not upgrade because the apparent benefits are outweighed by the costs. Which is where I am sitting.

Or... you COULD just keep playing in your setting with the old metasetting and declare that the old metasetting HAPPENS to be The Truth for the setting you are running.

Just like if I run Eberron, I don't have to allow 'Drow of the Underdark' books to be used, because quite frankly, Eberron Drow live on the surface and worship scorpions.  Presto! And no need to do any of that pesky 'work' in converting over.

Quote from: SpikeOr... you COULD just keep playing in your setting with the old metasetting and declare that the old metasetting HAPPENS to be The Truth for the setting you are running.

You're missing the whole "mechanical support" thing and the whole "player expectations" thing. Which are very real factors when it comes to running a game.

Quote from: SpikeOr... you COULD just keep playing in your setting with the old metasetting and declare that the old metasetting HAPPENS to be The Truth for the setting you are running.

Just like if I run Eberron, I don't have to allow 'Drow of the Underdark' books to be used, because quite frankly, Eberron Drow live on the surface and worship scorpions.  Presto! And no need to do any of that pesky 'work' in converting over.

If all they did was add a couple of races, it'd be easier.

The tough stuff is fixing up wizards. Yeah, I don't think I'm going to much miss Vancian magic... but having to use a crystal ball/staff/wand to empower spells... and schools that work differently... or whatever it is they're up to...

...anyway, changing how magic (or anything in the core classes) works is going to have a bit of a ripple effect.

Quote from: TrevelyanI assume that for "D&D" above we should read "Planescape", since the whole metasetting/cosmology bit was a Planscape invention that jars badly with several other settings and is explicitely ignored in others.

That's not true. No single D&D campaign ever existed in a vacuum, even outside of Planescape. All D&D settings influence and connect to each other. For example, you ever read those "Wizards' Three" articles in Dragon, or whatever they were called? You had three wizards from Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance hanging out, eating junk food, and trading information and arcane lore. :keke:

The planar cosmology and implied setting of D&D had more importance than immediately obvious, because many of us were creating our own shit in our homebrew campaigns. We didn't care what "core D&D" was, as we ran Greyhawk Clone Number 52. When there were oddball campaign settings, like Dark Sun and Spelljammer, it was generally acknowledged that they were considered "atypical". Oh, and honestly, Planescape was only alien and strange on the surface. It really only codified and built onto the planar cosmology and metasetting that was already there.

Anyone ever read AD&D 1e's Manual of the Planes? I haven't read it in a while, but is the information contained therein drastically contradicted by the Planescape stuff? I don't think so. Granted, I haven't read it in a while, but the basics are the same.

* And the Inner Planes are this:

1.) There are Inner Planes, like the Elemental Planes of Fire, Water, Earth, and Air.

2.) We have those Negative and Positive Energy Planes, as we all know.

3.) There are the Quasi/Para-Elemental Planes which tend to be some bizarre hybrids of the Planes above.

4.) Last, but not least, are the Astral and Ethereal Planes. They're like the "spiritual glue" that holds the various Prime Material Planes together.

* Yes, Prime Material Planes! :haw: Those are the campaign settings we know and love. This stuff was acknowledged in many sources outside of Planescape.

We know these settings. Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Birthright, Dark Sun, etc. The list goes on. Your homebrew probably resides on a Prime Material Plane.

* And the Outer Planes. These are the "alignment planes" where you can go to Asgard, Heaven, Hell, Limbo, and many others. Each Outer Plane corresponds to an alignment.

If you've played for a long time, then this stuff is old hat. I'm probably not telling you anything new. So why am I yapping on about it? I'm yapping about it because this cosmology has been a part of D&D's implied setting for decades, and now it sounds like they're gonna toss it out the window.

See, here's my argument. If they change the core cosmology of the game, it's a big deal, as it changes the implied setting for the game. They're going to alter our perception of D&D reality. Maybe it won't be as big a deal to visit a tribe of fire elementals any more. Before, we'd have our hands full just breathing, and enduring the overpowering heat. We'd also need powerful magic just to get there. Wasn't it mentioned on ENWorld that all this stuff is gonna change? Good or bad, the makes the game into...something else.

Also, if they drastically change the way magic works, it can drastically change the implied setting for the game. If they change the core races around, that's a big deal too. If you were playing Star Wars, and they replaced some of the aliens and some of the ships with aliens and spacecraft from Star Trek, would the game still be Star Wars, if it still said "Star Wars" on the cover? I don't know.:raise:

So let me see if I got this right. They're gonna change the rules, we don't roll saving throws any more, Vancian magic will be mostly gone, the nine-level spell system will be a relic of the past, gnomes are getting the axe, while part-demons, and part-angels will be core PC races, the D&D cosmology will be radically changed, and more. They're going to radically alter the (meta) setting, and radically alter the rules. How is this D&D again? :rolleyes:

If they want to create a new fantasy game, then they should just do it, and not trample on the legacy of the game. As much as I might have problems with 3e/3.5, I believe that it kept the LEGACY alive. 3.x is not my favorite edition, but I can still acknowledge it as D&D. Is 4e still D&D? I don't know. The jury is out, and it isn't looking good. I'm willing to be convinced though, so I'll pick up the Player's Handbook when it's on the shelves. :cool:

I forgot to add:

The planar cosmology was not an "invention" of Planescape. This metasetting was always around in some form outside of that campaign setting. If you have enough issues of Dragon, and supplements from the 1e/2e era, you'll see that Planescape didn't create the D&D cosmology. It just gives more detail, more flavor, and more life to it. It reminded us that sentient life actually exists on those myriad planes, but that's all it did. It gave us that reminder. :cool:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambIf they want to create a new fantasy game, then they should just do it, and not trample on the legacy of the game. As much as I might have problems with 3e/3.5, I believe that it kept the LEGACY alive.

Quoted for painful amounts of truthiness.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambThe planar cosmology was not an "invention" of Planescape. This metasetting was always around in some form outside of that campaign setting.

Planescape did not create the metasetting, but it did codify it and formalise the nature of interactions between planes, in particular the various Primes. Even so, there were several setting which had no place in the "Planescapesque" metasetting and in noe of those were some connection was implied was there any need to incorporate wider planar assumptions.

Quote from: TrevelyanPlanescape did not create the metasetting, but it did codify it and formalise the nature of interactions between planes, in particular the various Primes.

Not really, it took all of that from the 1E Manual of the Planes.

'Stories, myths, and legends; people build their identities upon narratives that describe their past. Is it any wonder that humans, with their vague, ambiguous, and often demonstrably false origin myths, are the most changeable race of any who stride the world?
      When the dwarves speak of being chiseled from the bones of the earth, and the elves sing of their leafy birth in the untamed Feywild, humans can only wonder. From what mold did humans spring? What god or primordial fashioned them, then abandoned them to the world without guidance or supervision? Or did they arise, as some learned sages claim, from the clay of the world itself, over millennia of slow variation from lesser beasts?
      With no true knowledge of their beginning,  lacking any familiarity with a creator, and absent a defined higher purpose a parent deity might provide, humanity claimed for itself the right to determine its own purposes'

- Bruce Cordell, preview intro to 4e Races and Classes

I don't know what pisses me off the most about this:

- The elves and dwarves are definitely RIGHT in their knowledge of their origins.

- Woo, no place for a human fundamentalist culture - who might be RIGHT - Who's proving it all to be false ? ah-the true pantheon who bestride the earth but the humans haven't noticed yet. The gods told the dwarves but didn't want the humans to know ? or did the Elves just KNOW ?

Bane: "I'm right happy to let MILLIONS OF HUMANS worship that odd-shaped tree or false god rather than me."

- Does Bruce get paid by the word, cause this didn't grab me (in a good way) ?

- Maybe I'm reading too much into nothing

Meh. It's just a fancy way of saying Dwarves and Elves have prescribed deities, while humans gods and religion are more varied.