Quote from: Consonant DudeIt's a matter of opinion, I guess. I've been playing D&D for over a quarter of a century and it still looks like D&D to me and I don't think it's changing that much (from 3e). I reserve the right to change opinion when it comes out and I play a few games, of course.

Agreed - it's absolutely opinion at that point!  Which is why I reserve the right to bitch about it.

Quote from: HaffrungThat's why I find all the pissing and moaning about 4E so hilarious.

My post was pissing and moaning?  You must have a low tolerance for such, I was pretty mellow.

But if you take a moment to read what I said and really think about it, it has a lot more to do with me "getting my feelings hurt".  WotC is taking a gamble by assuming the "new generation" is going to get on board.  They are hoping to capture an audience that just might not be all that interested in their game...while at the same time disregarding the fan base who they know have been interested.

You might think the "pissing and moaning about 4E is hilarious" I think a lot of it is very sound.  WotC is taking a gamble.  It might pay off; it might not, only time will tell.

P.S.  For the record, the 3.0 thing was totally different.  The industry was in a depression and needed 3.0 to revitalize it.  Right now we aren't in a slump; we have more great games than ever for people to turn to if they choose to turn away from 4E.

grubman, weren´t you the guy totally high on Star Wars Saga Edition?

I still dislike Saga, but you are also sceptical of 4e?

Now, WotC should start to worry.

Quote from: Settembrinigrubman, weren´t you the guy totally high on Star Wars Saga Edition?

I still dislike Saga, but you are also sceptical of 4e?

Now, WotC should start to worry.

I am sooooooooo tired of people saying this!

Yes, Star Wars saga is great, and an awesome system for Star Wars...but the very first thing I said is that I hope they didn't plan to incorporate any of these new mechanics into D&D because, while very appropriate for the feel of Star Wars, they would totally kill the feel of D&D.

I mean geez!  Every system isn't a perfect fit for every genre, just because I love Star Wars Saga doesn't mean I can't be realistic and see that it isn't a good fit for D&D (well, what D&D has always has been, obviously it'll be just fine for new D&D with thieves running up walls and doing back flips over opponents in combat...the Gray Mouser is rolling over in his grave...and he did plenty of flips).

Quote from: grubmanP.S.  For the record, the 3.0 thing was totally different.  The industry was in a depression and needed 3.0 to revitalize it.  Right now we aren't in a slump; we have more great games than ever for people to turn to if they choose to turn away from 4E.

I don't understand how you can say the industry today is healthier (commercially) than it was when 3E was in development. The impression I get from those in the know is that the tabletop RPG industry is smaller today than it was seven years ago - in dollars and in number of players.

The fact that the internet has helped gamers connect and share small-publisher niche games with one another is nice, but it's irrelevent to the business decisions of the license-holders of D&D. They're designing a new edition of D&D for exactly the same reason they designed 3E - to bring in some new customers, revitalize the brand, and sell a bunch of books.

The people complaining about 4E are just the latest batch of grognards to get frustrated that they're being left behind as game philosophies and styles evolve. WotC has no more reason to cater to those sensibilities than they did to cater to the sensibilities of the folks who were happy playing 1/2E and now hang out on Dragonsfoot.

Quote from: HaffrungThe people complaining about 4E are just the latest batch of grognards to get frustrated that they're being left behind as game philosophies and styles evolve.

Ok, you know...like the first line of my first post said, I stopped talking about 4E...

If you can't be mutually respectful I'm not going to bother going back and forth.  Grognards are people who don't like change, I love change.  There is a lot more going on there than you seem to see or care to understand, even if I try to explain it.

If it's OK with you I'll get out of this conversation/argument (although feel free to respond to my last comment if you like).  Like I said before every time I talk about 4E it just leads to arguments and a whole lot of frustration.  To be honest it's a moot point for me personally as my group is going to move on to something else...unfortunately I've always had the concern to look beyond my tabletop to the hobby as a whole...I guess caring is just silly.

Quote from: grubmanMy post was pissing and moaning?  You must have a low tolerance for such, I was pretty mellow.

"I can't evenmake a prediction about how well 4E or D20 will do in the future...one thing I do know is that D&D willl be dead the moment 4E hits the stands. Perhaps not the name, but the game is certainly NOT the same."

Seanchai

I think number 1. I thought I have read that there will be a similar OGL for 4E. I am sure the people who publish D20 stuff will switch to OGL 4E.

Quote from: HaffrungA great many people said the exact same things when 3E came out. The game was aimed at a younger, munchkin market that grew up with videogames; too much focus on tactical combat; the whole tone was too adolescent and cheesy; too much of the legacy of the game was being thrown out; it was all just meant to sell miniatures and endless supplements.

And they were right.

Quote from: grubmanLike I said before every time I talk about 4E it just leads to arguments and a whole lot of frustration.  To be honest it's a moot point for me personally as my group is going to move on to something else...unfortunately I've always had the concern to look beyond my tabletop to the hobby as a whole...I guess caring is just silly.

I think the problem is that you tend to look at "the hobby as a whole" from your very personal and volatile viewpoint.

Stating things like "it's not gonna be D&D anymore" is not a true concern for the hobby. Neither is suggesting that they are disregarding their existing fanbase. It's projecting your own concerns unto the hobby at large.

Quote from: HaffrungI don't understand how you can say the industry today is healthier (commercially) than it was when 3E was in development. The impression I get from those in the know is that the tabletop RPG industry is smaller today than it was seven years ago - in dollars and in number of players.

The rpg industry IS healthier than it was ten years ago. Period.

Quote from: HaffrungThe fact that the internet has helped gamers connect and share small-publisher niche games with one another is nice, but it's irrelevent to the business decisions of the license-holders of D&D. They're designing a new edition of D&D for exactly the same reason they designed 3E - to bring in some new customers, revitalize the brand, and sell a bunch of books.

Irrelevant? Man, what? Are you for real? The Internet is VERY relevant to the business decisions of the license-holders of D&D. They used ENWorld and the Wizard boards to give them ideas for the new edition. Eberron would never have happened if it wasn't pimped so heavily on the Internet. And quite frankly, if Hasbro didn't give a shit about us plebes on the Internet, then their precious "Digital Initiative" would never exist. Any bullshit about the "irrelevance" of the Internet is just utter nonsense.

The Internet could have been discounted ten years ago, but not any more. Our culture has drastically changed in only a decade, and we have the Internet to thank for that.

Quote from: HaffrungThe people complaining about 4E are just the latest batch of grognards to get frustrated that they're being left behind as game philosophies and styles evolve. WotC has no more reason to cater to those sensibilities than they did to cater to the sensibilities of the folks who were happy playing 1/2E and now hang out on Dragonsfoot.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, right.
Internet is shit and irrelevant to WotC.

That´s why they force their Develpoers to blog, blog, blog.
That´s why they moved D + D from print to online magazine.
That´s why they anounced they will have some Gleemax some day.

Now, if the Internet is irrelevant, then WotC is pretty stupid moving everything there.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambThe rpg industry IS healthier than it was ten years ago. Period.

Excuse me if I don't take your word for it. From the comments I've seen by industry insiders, the RPG industry was in decline ten years ago, the publication of 3E saw a spike in sales, and now the decline has steepened. The average age of players is getting older. The market is getting smaller. That's why WotC has to go after the younger gamers to bring in new customers (just as they did with 3E).

Quote from: Sacrificial LambIrrelevant? Man, what? Are you for real? The Internet is VERY relevant to the business decisions of the license-holders of D&D.

Read what I wrote. The internet is not irrelevent; the chatter of a handful of super-enthusiasts on RPGNet about the trendy game of the month is fucking irrelevent. Grubman asserted that gamers have a lot more choice today than when 3E came out. And I'm saying not in any commercial sense. WotC doesn't give a fuck about internet darlings like Savage Worlds, Reign, and other games that sell a few thousands copies. D&D is in an entirely different league, a league of hundreds of thousands.

Sure, WotC wants to get the hardcore gamers and trend setters onside. Sure they want to use the internet to market their game. But people who spend half their day on RPG gaming sites often lose all sense of perspective about the relative scales of the small-publisher market and WotC. None of the games the RPGnet crowd enthuse over is any more a threat to D&D than WFRP, GURPS, or Earthdawn were when 3E was in development. Probably less, given the decline of second-tier publishers in recent years.

Quote:rolleyes:

Care to make a rational rebuttal? How are the people complaining about 4E, and who presumably won't play it, any different from the folks who didn't buy into 3E?

Quote from: HaffrungCare to make a rational rebuttal? How are the people complaining about 4E, and who presumably won't play it, any different from the folks who didn't buy into 3E?

The folks who didn't buy into 3e were mostly story-based Swine who were responsible for the collapse of the roleplaying hobby?

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