...then you have the interesting example of BABYLON 5. JMS says he is an atheist - and yet over the course of that show's 5 years he treated both Earth and alien religions with more respect and fairness than 80% of what primetime television.


- Ed C.

Quote from: flyingmiceSince most game designers don't understand religion

Most players have distorted view of medieval and ancient religions. Back in the early 90s, a friend and I studied medieval culture and society. Not only just for learning but gather more interesting plot hooks to use in our respective campaigns.

My players had to goto a village that had a major cathedral. Several of them were scandalized when they walked into the main entrance and found a lively market in the main chamber. They tried to call me on it but I pointed out that for many communities the temple/cathedral was the focus of the region and no only religous services were conducted but many other types of business as well. The priests often acted as witnesses/clerks/lawyers for those who needed various types of legal help. Of course certain areas, namely around the altar, were off-limits.

I pretty much have no interest in any setting that constrains creation instead of evoking it from the players and GM which is sadly most of them for me.

Quote from: TimStats for songbirds and house cats.

This is what I'm looking for in a setting.

Animalia, coming up for free on rpgdrivethru tomorrow...

And I'm quite enjoying Squirrel Attack which has these stats.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhat I've got is a "church" in a world where there are no deities.  There are, however, demonlike things - and the traditional place of the church is to ward them out of the world, and ensure that they can't "catch" a soul between reincarnations.  There is, though, a faction of the church that believes they ought to punish diabolicals instead of just warding them off.  So, they've started making magical gear out of trapped diabolicals, and human society deeply craves magical gear, so the faction has risen to prominence.  This has the downside of weakening the boundaries between the world and Tartarus (where the diabolicals live)...   and that makes them the bad guys, because they're endangering the whole world.

At which point I'd question why these people are a church, per se. They don't serve a function of bringing the community together on a regular basis to worship together, they don't set out to promote a particular faith as set out by church doctrine, and they don't seem to prioritise people's well-being in this world much - you wouldn't go to one of these guys to confess your sins, say, or ask for moral or spiritual guidance.

Their main contact with non-members seems to be through making sure people's souls are OK after death, and whacking the occasional demon-worshipper; otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much reason for them to be particularly open to outsiders (especially if they have secret demon-binding techniques).

If they perform little-to-none of the social functions of a church, or any other organised religion, why make them a church? It sounds like it would make more sense for them to be a business, a guild charged with protecting the souls of the dead and maintaining the wards (and making juicy profits out of those magic items) - with perhaps some elements of a secret society, for the demon-hunting end of things. Kind of like the Freemasons, only thematically based around undertaking (if they're going to be providing the warding-the-soul service, they may as well do the rest of the funeral too) instead of building cathedrals.

Quote from: walkerpAnimalia, coming up for free on rpgdrivethru tomorrow...
QUOTE]

Wow, thanks for the heads up on that.  I've been working on an intelligent animals setting for years, but haven't been able to get the system to work right for me.  I had wondered about Animalia, but no one seemed to know anything about it.

Pete

Quote from: Koltar...then you have the interesting example of BABYLON 5. JMS says he is an atheist - and yet over the course of that show's 5 years he treated both Earth and alien religions with more respect and fairness than 80% of what primetime television.

That's a good example. JMS might not agree with religion, but he's certainly done his research and treats the subject matter with respect - he's really good at tackling tricky topics and expressing his own point of view without necessarily ramming it down the viewer's throat or absolutely discounting others' perspectives.

The best example's the episode where the station's doctor comes into conflict with aliens whose religion has a similar no-transplants policy to the Jehovah's Witnesses; JMS neatly puts across the doctor's arguments, but also shows us how others might consider the doctor to have been in the wrong on that issue.

IIIRC, that was also the episode where they had representatives of all the different alien' species religions showing up, and Sheridan solved the problem of "who represents Earth?" by getting representatives of every human religion out there. It was a neat statement, and also cleverly showed the particular strength of the humans in B5 - their high level of cultural diversity compared with the over civilisations.

Quote from: WarthurAt which point I'd question why these people are a church, per se.

Well, they manage the social, community rituals surrounding death and birth, both.  They have a hierarchy, run the graveyards and the funerary locales, and are the only institution based on human spiritual belief outside of diabolical cults.

I'd consider that a church.  Of sorts.

(I also already have a super-guild: The magic-item makers that the church is replacing, who made stuff out of dead dragons before the dragons pulled back a ways and fortified.   And, since the players characters in the game are the dragons...   I wanted to keep it simple).

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWell, they manage the social, community rituals surrounding death and birth, both.  They have a hierarchy, run the graveyards and the funerary locales, and are the only institution based on human spiritual belief outside of diabolical cults.

I'd consider that a church.  Of sorts.

Aha. So their spiritual beliefs relate more to ensuring that the soul safely travels from death to rebirth and doesn't fall into any of the horrifying pitfalls along the way? Reminds me a lot of the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

Out of interest, what makes the demons "demons" and not simply malign gods, given the absence of any other type of god?

A tangent, vaguely related to the subject but not specifically about Levi's campaign: wouldn't the presence of physically tangible gods and demons in a gameworld imply that any religion arising there would be fundamentally different from religion in our own world, where both gods and demons tend not to be visible and only visible through such miracles (or whatever the satanic counterpart is) as they cause to happen?

I hate the old man/soldier/farm girl NPC found dying alongside the road who, after imparting his information to the PCs, cannot be saved by them in any way whatsoever.

Quote from: pspahn

Quote from: walkerpAnimalia, coming up for free on rpgdrivethru tomorrow...
QUOTE]
Wow, thanks for the heads up on that.  I've been working on an intelligent animals setting for years, but haven't been able to get the system to work right for me.  I had wondered about Animalia, but no one seemed to know anything about it.

Mundi Animalia is actually up on Friday.  Tomorrow is Tales From the Wood, which could be interesting as well.

Quote from: WarthurIIIRC, that was also the episode where they had representatives of all the different alien' species religions showing up, and Sheridan solved the problem of "who represents Earth?" by getting representatives of every human religion out there. It was a neat statement, and also cleverly showed the particular strength of the humans in B5 - their high level of cultural diversity compared with the over civilisations.

Actually you're combining plots from TWO different episodes - but not a big deal.

In an interview that Straczynski did, he said that the lineup of representatives from Earth was made of spare crewmembers and office staffers at the studio. When each one said what his or her religion was - that was the person's REAL religion as well. He also made sure thare was at least one atheist that would be heard in the first 6 or 7 - so that would still be heard in dialogue before the scene was over.

In My TRAVELLER campaign religion does get mentioned - but the characters have never really had a conflict about it ...at least not yet. The ship's main 6 or 7 characters represent at least 5 different faiths or religions from what I can remember.

  The Ship's navigator is a member of the "Church of The Still Waiting".  Its a 57th century descendant of what we nowadays think of as Christianity , but there have been MANY amusing adjustments and changes over the centuries.


- Ed C.

Quote from: TimStats for songbirds and house cats.

There'sa supplement for Over the Edge with stats for a lapdog. . .that can kick most gutterpunk's asses.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: estarMNot only just for learning but gather more interesting plot hooks to use in our respective campaigns.

What's funny to me is that you just described how I wound up as a Medieval History major (and then an Antiquities major) in college. No, really... it all started with me wanting to make my settings more realistic.

:haw:

Jebus, I'm such a dork.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: WarthurAha. So their spiritual beliefs relate more to ensuring that the soul safely travels from death to rebirth and doesn't fall into any of the horrifying pitfalls along the way? Reminds me a lot of the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

Bingo.

Quote from: WarthurOut of interest, what makes the demons "demons" and not simply malign gods, given the absence of any other type of god?

In the game, the demons were once a living race that learned to subsume the "essential natures" of other things into themselves.  Hence, chicken-legged scorpion-tailed vulture-headed things, and the like.  Mussushu, cockatrice, minotaur, tarrasque.  They ate their world, and fell into the "place between worlds" - and now, they live there, and try to eat other worlds; and what's more, others can really and truly join them and become the same kind of things as they are.

Hence, the cults.  Which serve demons in order to become demons.  And usually get eaten instead...    but only usually.

You could call that a god, I suppose...   but I decided not to.