For me it was a few things, many of them quite small but quite important.

The split into the core book and companion was a blatant moneyspinner, the companion was core rules, as best I could tell they had rather artificially cut the core book in two and sold it in two lots.

Leaving aside the ethics or cost to the consumer of that, it made it harder to use, some characters required referencing both books.  It actually made the game less useful in order to get more money from customers.  Uncool.

But there was other stuff, hit points were amended so that a dagger thrust to the abdomen couldn't kill the average guy any more.  That may not sound like a big deal, but it's a fundamental shift to how Runequest plays IMO.  That coupled with a fortune point mechanic meant that while RQ2 and 3 were potentially very deadly games this one not so much.  For me the change to lethality was a change which utterly lost the spirit of the original game.  Like making a new DnD edition with a rule in which critical hits could instantly kill any character regardless of level.  It ignores the philosophy of the system.

The legendary abilities weren't much cop, but they were easily ignored, even so it was blatantly introducing feats.

But really it was a lack of a feel for what made the original game good.  They made it less lethal, the rules in a few places a touch clunkier, the writing was very dry and it was artificially split over two books.

The trouble with MRQ wasn't that it was some terrible travesty, it was that it just wasn't that good and it had lost what made RQ unique in the first place.

Oh, and they made rune magic something only magi had, they dropped the everyone has magic thing, and even then how you got it didn't make much sense.  Just generally it felt kind of not so great.

Quote from: WarthurWeren't ki skills run under the percentile system?

EDIT TO ADD: My objection to Legendary Abilities isn't that they're superheroic - there's plenty of scope for that in BRP/RQ - it's that they are very obviously grafted onto the system, and aren't really integrated with any particular part of it. They don't derive from the core percentile mechanic, like just about every other BRP subsystem you care to mention does.

Yep, I don't think they're a critical failing of the game as it were because they're not integral and are easily ignored, but basically they are feats kludged onto a BRP variant and they work about as well as that sounds.

Quote from: BalbinusYep, I don't think they're a critical failing of the game as it were because they're not integral and are easily ignored, but basically they are feats kludged onto a BRP variant and they work about as well as that sounds.

I suppose from my end I don't think they ruin the game all by themselves, but they're a quick and easy shorthand for explaining how the MRQ designers simply Did. Not. Understand what made the earlier editions of RQ worthwhile and interesting and successful.

As Paranoia 5th Edition and Bruce Baugh's d20 version of Gamma World taught us so painfully, there are few things worse in gaming than a new edition of a game designed by somebody who simply doesn't understand why people liked the older versions in the first place.

Gee, these aree all almost the same complaints about Mongoose's Runequest that I read in a similiar thread on the SJG forums a month or 2 ago.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarGee, these aree all almost the same complaints about Mongoose's Runequest that I read in a similiar thread on the SJG forums a month or 2 ago.

- Ed C.

If they're accurate criticisms that's to be expected surely?

Warthur, good point on the shorthand thing there.

And yes, the key to refreshing a game is to get it.  Gamma World is a good example, as a standalone PA rpg it might have been fine, but it really had very little to do with Gamma World other than branding and people reacted to that.

Paranoia 5th, is that the pre-Mongoose one?

Quote from: BalbinusParanoia 5th, is that the pre-Mongoose one?

Yes. It's the one that WEG put out after churning out ever-more-awful products for years and years, after all of the original designers (and most of the guys who'd written products before the decline began) had left, and where they assigned the art to a chimpanzee with a pencil and the writing to a bunch of dorks who didn't even slightly understand what made the original game good.

This RPG.net thread has a reasonably summary of the issues with 5th. As Allen Varney points out, when designing Paranoia XP he unilaterally declared every Paranoia product published after 1989 to be an "un-product", wiping out the decline and fall of the game line under WEG. Nobody (at the point the thread was written) criticised him for it, and I've never seen anyone do so since. Can you imagine someone doing something similar to any other popular game line and not be subject to an enormous howl of protest from the fans?

This is why people like me, before MRQ came out, trusted Mongoose with rereleases of classic games: any publisher who could help drag Paranoia out of the doldrums and make it as successful (if not more successful - I believe there are more XP supplements out now than there ever were for other editions) as it ever was, when WEG had so badly squandered the game's potential and reputation, deserves respect.

RQ had, for me, these defining traits:

• Lethal and gritty system: A dagger thrust against an unarmored guy was serious shit. No more "poke - me - 20 - times - with - your - knife - so - I - start - feeling - a - bit - uncomfortable" thingie. Limbs were easily chopped off, and you took your combat seriously. Now, you don't have that feeling. Crap.
  
• Everyone had magic: You had to take one of the specialist professions (shaman, priest/rune lord or sorcerer) to get to do Really Badass Magic Shit, but everybody had a little magic (or, if you had cash, a lot of it). Game was richer and unpredictable for it. Also, magic healing helped a bit to faster the healing without losing the grittyness of the system (because magic could fail, and it costs resources). Now you are stuck in a more typical fantasy game, where only mages have magic. Originality lost. Crap.
  
• Everything was in a slim book: You didn't have to break your back carrying books to play the game. You could if you wished to, but it wasn't mandatory.

Three traits. Just three simple traits. So, I declare this a Not Bad Fantasy Game, but An Utter RQ Travesty.
 
I'll stick with 3e. She will ever love me, and has never failed me.

Quote from: ImperatorRQ had, for me, these defining traits:

• Lethal and gritty system: A dagger thrust against an unarmored guy was serious shit. No more "poke - me - 20 - times - with - your - knife - so - I - start - feeling - a - bit - uncomfortable" thingie. Limbs were easily chopped off, and you took your combat seriously. Now, you don't have that feeling. Crap.

See, that always seemed to be a big key point for fans I spoke with regarding the old RQ.  I'm really surprised they changed that, as it seemed to be something a lot of RQ fans brought up as something they liked about it.

That's one of the reasons I like RM, btw.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstSee, that always seemed to be a big key point for fans I spoke with regarding the old RQ. I'm really surprised they changed that, as it seemed to be something a lot of RQ fans brought up as something they liked about it.
 
That's one of the reasons I like RM, btw.

Word on the RM (and MERP) thing. Critical tables were just for the manly.
 
I don't understand the playtesting process at Mongoose, so I can't comment on it. It's just not the same game with the lethality downgraded. Some friends of mine (hardcore RQ fans) play MRQ and quite enjoy it, but they have tweaked it a bit to get the grit back.

Heck, some MRQ playtesters never understood the playtesting process at Mongoose.

Quote from: BalbinusFor me it was a few things, many of them quite small but quite important.

The split into the core book and companion was a blatant moneyspinner, the companion was core rules, as best I could tell they had rather artificially cut the core book in two and sold it in two lots.

That is an excellent point.  If you want to play MRQ with sorcerors, shaman, divine magic and a good variety of spells you have to buy probably 4 books and that doesn't even get you the monster book.  The cost of that aside, it is annoying to flip through all those books.

I think you and Warthur have summed it up nicely, MRQ isn't a terrible travesty but it is disappointing in many ways.  For instance, I don't know why it was necessary to change the damages for weapons and armor points.  OTOH the reason I like MRQ is that I can cherry pick material and easily ignore the new rules I don't like and there is finally new material being published for RQ.

I've never played RQ before MRQ, so I've no basis of comparison, but I'm running a MRQ game right now (homebrew setting), and here are my thoughts thus far:

Pros

• It's a decent generic fantasy system, which you can download for free (a blessing to a man running in group on a budget).
• Easy to learn.
• It's far grittier than D&D (my group's bread and butter), which is a nice change of pace.

Cons

• Poorly worded rules have lead to confusion several times already...and we're only two games deep.  Combat steps in particular have caused headaches, which are only slightly mitigated by the erratta, which also (ironically) suffers from rules contradictions.
• The layout of this book is rather crap.  I mean, they have things flung all over the place with little or no thought to ease of use.  It's a pain in the ass, not helped by the fact that there's...
• A distinct lack of information, which smells suspiciously intentional.
• I'm not wild about the magic system as presented, as there aren't enough spells in the book to make being a spellcaster a desirable option.

In short:  the system works just fine, but suffers from some major quality issues.  Not exactly a top-tier game, by any means.

Quote from: BalbinusThat coupled with a fortune point mechanic meant that while RQ2 and 3 were potentially very deadly games this one not so much.

Fortune point mechanic? I missed that, too. Can't find it in the SRD. Any pointers?

Quote from: Elliot WilenFortune point mechanic? I missed that, too. Can't find it in the SRD. Any pointers?

Hero Points. Their use is described at the end of Chapter 3, Combat. Bit of an odd place for them:

Quote from: MRQ SRDHero Points
Hero points can be used in a variety of ways.  One Hero Point is deducted form the character's total every time one of the following options is taken.

Second Chance:  A character can re-roll any dice roll that affects his character.  This can be a skill test, damage roll or anything else that has some effect on him.  

Glancing Blow:  A character who suffers a Major Injury may spend a Hero Point and downgrade that injury to a Serious Injury.  This simultaneously reduces the damage so that it is at a negative score equal to its starting hit points.

Luck of the Heroes:  A Hero Point may be spent to alter the storyline of the current scenario in some minor way.  This may only be done with the approval of the Games Master and allows a character to become truly lucky for a short period of time.  

Legendary Abilities:  The character may spend Hero Points to acquire a Legendary Ability he has qualified for.  

The hero points system reminded me of Karma Points from Shadowrun.  I also thought the new initiative system was reminiscent of Shadowrun.

Arsenic's experience was interesting.  I've played RQ for so many years that I didn't have much problem navigating the MRQ rules since I knew what to expect, but I can see where it would be confusing for a GM new to the system, particularly if you are going off of the SRD.

The new combined core rule book may solve the problem but you can also get the core MRQ rules and a more developed magic system a then you get in the core book from one of the other MRQ-based games like Hawkmoon, Lankhmar or Slaine.  Elric also has the core rules plus sorcery but the magic is limited to summonings.

Or you can always hang out and wait for BRP from Chaosium.