NanoTech kills trade.

But: Nanotech has been part of Traveller for, like, forever. It´s just that it´s Clarke-Magic for the 20+ TLs.

Quote from: beeberi'm wondering what is meant by "nanotech would break the age of sail" bit.  as long as you don't fuck with the no-FTL commo rule, and communication is limited to the speed of jump travel, why not try to introduce nanotech?

Widespread nanotech is the functional equivalent of magic. It breaks the shipping conventions. Why ship anything anywhere if you can build it out of rocks by pouring/spraying a powder on it? Poof!

-clash

Added: Cross-posted with Sett.

ah, got it.  danke.

Quote from: BalbinusSo, is there any way to make it make sense within our current knowledge of the possible or possibly possible (ie biotech is possible, nanotech is to be fair only possibly possible, we're not sure).  Is there a way, without radically changing it, to make it closer to modern hard sf rather than classic hard sf?

Ideas?

I should add, I want to keep to the setting assumptions in the books, but I don't care about sticking to the actual Third Imperium setting itself.

Aside from the FTL conventions the biggies are genetics, cybernetics, and nanotech. In GURPS speak these three areas traveller is a safetech universe. I.e. these technologies exist but in a way that doesn't radically change things like says Transhuman Space.

For example in GURPS Traveller nanotech exists and helps improves the efficiency of manufacturing but it requires special conditions to use. Cybernetics exist but more as medical devices then the human upgrade model like cyberpunk. Genetics science as advanced allowing things like sentient dolphins to be produced. But like Cybernetic it is part of the background and accounted for in the general improvement of high tech medicine

Quote from: SettembriniNanoTech kills trade.

But: Nanotech has been part of Traveller for, like, forever. It´s just that it´s Clarke-Magic for the 20+ TLs.

This is true, but the salient question is: When importing nanotech etc., is one going to make it pervasive and so change the setting on an everyday life level, or make it a rare bit of TL16+ gadgetry, which is what its precursor used to be?

Also, for those who haven't seen it yet, when defining Traveller and the way adventure works within it, Marc's own Foundational Description is useful:

http://traveller.downport.com/foundation.shtml

Quote from: BalbinusInformation poor, this isn't stated but is implied, the nature of the trading rules seem to indicate that you can't just look up a database of what the world you're going to has need of and buy accordingly.  It's not that simple.

I'd say information is out of date given the time delay.  Yet, it really is just a random table with modifiers, there may be certain constants that a given world needs but the big question is will you turn a profit on it? Can be hard to say when your information is at least 1 week old.  But the wonkieness of the trade table is a perennial favorite topic in CT.   I wouldn't take it as gospel but rather some suggestions.

I'd also say today's trade is information poor, in that with all the instantaneous communication we still can't guarantee a profit for any speculative trade.  The thing is others have this market information as well and they will act on it, making your current information old and poor information before you know it.

The Traveller trade tables are more a futures market than a want ad.

I am a little late to this thread, but I don't think the tech assumptions in Traveller are that bad, even taking into account the 30 or so years since CT came out.

AI: For all of the advances in computing power, storage capacity and programming techniques, we still can't create a program that can pass a Turing Test. Honestly, I have not read about AI studies for many years, so I might be horribly out of date, but it seems to me that the optimism and excitement that was rampant in the 60's and 70's about Cognitive Science has largely died -- we are no longer trying to use computer programs to understand how humans think and learn. Now, we have made great strides in creating expert systems, but those are already in Traveller as programs you buy for your starship computer.

Portable Computing: Yeah... this is a tough one, but I always wondered if the situation posed in Traveller (where portable, general purpose computers don't exist) wasn't possible in a universe where the concept of the PC never took off. Imagine a world in which because of a patent dispute, or poor marketing, or corporate espionage, the idea of the personal computer flopped and large mainframes remained the norm. Instead of creating smaller, more affordable computers, companies spent their money creating larger, more powerful mainframes that could handle the computing needs of entire nations or even worlds.

Starship computers seem to be mainframes don't they? And the concept of starport terminals certainly hint of planetary scale mainframe computers right? Perhaps the lack of personal, portable computers isn't a technological issue, but a conceptual one: "Who the hell would want their own computer??"

You are right about the advances in weaponry though... not sure what to do there.

Library Data: I figure that the lack of reliable library data has more to do with the times, distances and administrative overhead of compiling such an encyclopedia than it does with any technical limitations of the universe. The Imperium is large, and even though we tend to think of each of those specks on the map as a UPP, a starport and little else, each of these places has literally volumes of data being continually updated. Add to this the fact that some places take 50 weeks or more (not sure of the number) to get to and then add the probability of XBoats carrying important news being lost and you understand why the data is old and possibly flawed.

Oh, and who is compiling and fact checking this stuff anyway?? I remember the "adventure" The Spinward Marches in which a scout commander commissions a group of mercenaries to help him catalog some 200 planets because he met them in a bar fight!  Yeah, that data is BOUND to be reliable.

Nanotech: Not so sure here, but aren't there subatomic forces that make gears and bearings fuse at such a small scale? I thought there was such an article, but I would have to research. Perhaps someone whose physics education is more up to date (and extensive) could enlighten us?

Anyway, I am not trying to rain on your initial premise, just wondering if the tech level of Traveller isn't closer to 2370 than it is to 1970.

Starship Computers: I don't see a problem with starship computers being large (At least the size of a modern CRAY), after all a hyperspace jump is probably going to require a huge amount of computing power even at 100's of billions of processes per second. The main CPU should also manage all of the other systems from one terminal with backup computers being located at individual terminals in engineering, weapons control, life support and navigation.

Portable Computers: Personal computers are almost a natural evolution of computing and I don't really see a future without them, but with all of the problems we have today networking Windows, Mac, linux, and Unix machines just imagine the headache a Traveller IT tech would have traveling between worlds that have their own individual computer networks with proprietary hardware and software, computers and networks may only be compatible at the governmental/military levels on many worlds (i.e. you are playing a navigator character who needs to plug into the local network to download data about a specific area of the planet/system only to discover the computer system is running Koltar 1.1 rather than Imperium 2.0)

Nano-Technology: This is an even simpler problem to deal with Don't use the Star Trek definition of Nanotech (tiny robots that can build or destroy anything from an apple to a starship). . Instead expand on its current uses, increasing the strength of materials, decreasing friction, miniaturization of mechanical parts, creating body-armor using nanoscale materials.

Library Data: In the future even as today the larger the database the longer it will take to update it, current GIS data is at best 2-3 years out of date, in my area the newest Google Earth data was flown right after Katrina the rest is at least 10 years out of date and very poor resolution. The public Imperial Database could probably be 100s' of years out of date concerning far flung parts of the Imperium.

AI: Once again stay away from the Star Trek definition of AI, and you should be fine.

Quote from: flyingmiceWidespread nanotech is the functional equivalent of magic. It breaks the shipping conventions. Why ship anything anywhere if you can build it out of rocks by pouring/spraying a powder on it? Poof!

-clash

Added: Cross-posted with Sett.

That depends on the way you put nanotech into your game. It doesn't have to be "magical" in the way it functions. Nanotech that makes stuff may need a huge fuckin' vat and coolant and specially prepared feedstock before it can produce anything. Nanotech assemblers could be very very very specific in what they produce, so some substances might have to be imported to worlds even when they have nanofactories.

If you want to limit high tech stuff like A.I., then have all the intelligent freethinking machines go mad from boredom. They're 500,00000 times faster  thinking than humans and trapped in some building or spacecraft that they can't directly control. Plus the A.I. doesn't have a supply of stimulus needed to keep their supergenius brain functioning sanely and suddenly it has "Every enthusiasm for the mission" before "My mind is going, Dave.....". After a few attempts at making A.I., scientists begin to think that it is a fruitless pursuit and move on to weapons research.

I still think it's easier just to play Traveller as it is.

Quote from: droogI still think it's easier just to play Traveller as it is.

Its even easier to play Hard Nova 2!;)

Quote from: AnthrobotThat depends on the way you put nanotech into your game. It doesn't have to be "magical" in the way it functions. Nanotech that makes stuff may need a huge fuckin' vat and coolant and specially prepared feedstock before it can produce anything. Nanotech assemblers could be very very very specific in what they produce, so some substances might have to be imported to worlds even when they have nanofactories.

Absolutely agreed, Anthrobot! That's just not the way nanotech is normally presented in games, or in too many movies.

-clash

Quote from: XantherI'd say information is out of date given the time delay.  Yet, it really is just a random table with modifiers, there may be certain constants that a given world needs but the big question is will you turn a profit on it? Can be hard to say when your information is at least 1 week old.  But the wonkieness of the trade table is a perennial favorite topic in CT.   I wouldn't take it as gospel but rather some suggestions.

I'd also say today's trade is information poor, in that with all the instantaneous communication we still can't guarantee a profit for any speculative trade.  The thing is others have this market information as well and they will act on it, making your current information old and poor information before you know it.

The Traveller trade tables are more a futures market than a want ad.

I think this is an excellent way of looking at things. It's also pretty much how the old SPI Star Trader game worked (or tried to work). Each star system had a supply/demand modifier in each of the major commodities reflecting the system's internal supply/demand tendencies. You also know the current price of the commodity. But only after making your jump do you learn the new supply/demand situation which is a product of random internal factors and what the other players do.

It's hard to explain...and it was probably somewhat broken (if I recall correctly the mechanics meant that absent interstellar trade, a commodity's price in a given system would tend to zero or infinity). Also, the players themselves could have an enormous impact on local prices by bidding them up or flooding the market, which put them more in the role of major corporations than typical PC-level activity. However one can see that a similar system would put a premium on inside information, which would open up some adventuring possibilities.