Quote from: jeff37923So here's the followup questions to this:

Why aren't more players proactive with their characters? Is this a result of CRPGs where a character can only proceed through a few well-dfined scenarios with limited interaction influencing tabletop play? Is it a lack of understanding what the characters are capable of in game? Could it be just a lack of experience of the players?

Everything is because of CRPGs! Get off my lawn!

Seriously though, the level of proactivity we're talking about, where players create a story from whole cloth, is very difficult to do. It's especialy difficult if they don't have control over the setting. The GM should either give them some editorial control or get off his kiester and write some conflict into the script. A bucket o' city names does not an adventure make.

I used to have the same problem.  I think in my group's case they just didn't want to give a lot of thought to the game either and wanted me to entertain them.  In that case I just stuck them in the City State of the Invincible Overlord and let them hear some vague rumors and gossip that got their interest.

They became proactive at that point.  Of course most of them ended up in jail, but they did it proactively.

Maybe just provide them with some plot hooks to get them rolling?  

• "You see an old begger in the street being kicked by some thugs"
• "There is a contest being announced by the town herald to win the hand of Princess Luna."
• "A giant frog is ravaging a nearby village."

etc.  

Just stuff to get them going...?  Just create a stack of those and drop them in when the Players start getting that deer-in-the-headlights look?

- Mark

Quote from: VBWyrdeMaybe just provide them with some plot hooks to get them rolling?

Just stuff to get them going...?  Just create a stack of those and drop them in when the Players start getting that deer-in-the-headlights look?

- Mark

How about rolling for initiative?  Great plot hook.  The GM and players can make sense of how the players tie into the conflict later.

Quote from: Malleus ArianorumEverything is because of CRPGs! Get off my lawn!

Seriously though, the level of proactivity we're talking about, where players create a story from whole cloth, is very difficult to do. It's especialy difficult if they don't have control over the setting. The GM should either give them some editorial control or get off his kiester and write some conflict into the script. A bucket o' city names does not an adventure make.

You're misunderstanding my point. The players do have input on the setting and the adventures, they just tend not to take advantage of that.

I don't want to dump the story creation entirely on the players. I want the players to come up with their own goals they want their characters to strive for in game so that I can create the adventuring environment for them that would be the most entertaining for the group.

The problem I face is that while players come up with good backstory and good characters, they tend to not know where to go from there. I can provide them with adventures and campaigns of my own devising, but that may or may not address what kind of adventures they want their characters to go through. I'm trying to maximize fun by getting the players involved with the game on a meta level by telling me what they'd like to see happen, so I can concentrate the campaign focus on those inputs.

If it's metagame, then take a poll as others have said. I thought you were trying to make them write it from within the story. Something like this...

GM: So! What sounds cool?
Player: I wanna hunt down Osama bin Ladin and KICK HIS ASS!
GM: Ok, so you guys are standing outside of the Circle K in Butte Montana. It's about 5pm and clear sky looms above you. This is "big sky country" after all.
Player: I uh, look around for terrorists.
GM: You don't see any terrorists here.
Player: ...go inside and buy some smokes?
GM: The clerk in a turban says "Here are your smokes! Thank you! Please come again!"
Player: Is it a Sikh turban?
GM: Yes.
Player: Dang. Well I look for terrorists anyway.
GM: You don't THINK you see any terrorists here.
Player: ...I look again?
GM: You don't SEE any terrorists here.
Player: ...I feel around for them?
GM: You can't find any terrorists HERE.
Player: Fine I go outside and look, and listen and feel around for terrorists outside the circle K.
GM: YOU don't find any terrorits.
Player: What are you hinting at?
GM: What are YOU hinting at?
Player: What do you want me to do?
GM: What do you want ME to do?
Player: What does it take to make you happy?
GM: What does it take to make YOU happy?
Player: I want to find Osama and kick his ass!
GM: So like I said, you're standing in Butte Montana under a clear sky....

Quote from: Malleus ArianorumIf it's metagame, then take a poll as others have said. I thought you were trying to make them write it from within the story. Something like this...

GM: So! What sounds cool?
Player: I wanna hunt down Osama bin Ladin and KICK HIS ASS!
GM: Ok, so you guys are standing outside of the Circle K in Butte Montana. It's about 5pm and clear sky looms above you. This is "big sky country" after all.
Player: I uh, look around for terrorists.
GM: You don't see any terrorists here.
Player: ...go inside and buy some smokes?
GM: The clerk in a turban says "Here are your smokes! Thank you! Please come again!"
Player: Is it a Sikh turban?
GM: Yes.
Player: Dang. Well I look for terrorists anyway.
GM: You don't THINK you see any terrorists here.
Player: ...I look again?
GM: You don't SEE any terrorists here.
Player: ...I feel around for them?
GM: You can't find any terrorists HERE.
Player: Fine I go outside and look, and listen and feel around for terrorists outside the circle K.
GM: YOU don't find any terrorits.
Player: What are you hinting at?
GM: What are YOU hinting at?
Player: What do you want me to do?
GM: What do you want ME to do?
Player: What does it take to make you happy?
GM: What does it take to make YOU happy?
Player: I want to find Osama and kick his ass!
GM: So like I said, you're standing in Butte Montana under a clear sky....

I can see this as being played by Dante and Randall in CLERKS, the RPG.

But yeah, you got it.

I'm not even supposed to BE here today!

Quote from: jeff37923I can see this as being played by Dante and Randall in CLERKS, the RPG.

But yeah, you got it.

Seriously? Well fuck me, you've got to get your shit together in a sock and wire it tight, GM-boy, before those players rise up and overthrow you in what you can only hope is a bloodless coup.

As I said: Too many choices are overwhelming. You've got to give them something to work with. If they have to come up with everything themselves, what do they need the GM for? You could at least go fetch them pizza or something.

Between "you're either on the train or you're under it, bitch" GMing style, and the "you wake up naked and with no memory in a dark room with no doors and windows, what do you do?" - between railroading and plotless, there's a sensible middle ground, where you give them a choice of several options; from the choices they make others naturally arise, and then you have a campaign.

I had to laugh at the Finding Osama vignette.


But yeah, here's my thing: I just tell them where the entrance to the dungeon is.

See, campaigns are different at the beginning and in the middle and at the end, and the people who aren't prone to give you all the goals at the beginning of the campaign might not even know what they want their character to be, until perhaps they have tried him out a bit. And in that case, they're just looking for a place to try him out. In fantasy, you just provide a town and a dungeon full of encounters and let them whomp stuff for a while. They want to try out their powers and rack up some points before they emotionally commit to their characters inner life.

Then after session 4 (or 6 or 10) try asking again? Maybe you get a bit more. I had a situation like that in one of my fantasy campaigns that took like.. a couple of months before one of the players wanted to pursue subplots that I had dangled about his character-race and class (he had chosed an Elan Psion, so I threw out some plot points with other Elan and other psions.. and at first he didn't really want to pursue them.) After a while he got more comfortable and that became a major part of the campaign.

Ok, but if it's not in fantasy, what then? In my case I am working on this Mutants and Masterminds campaign and I plan on just doing the exactly wrong totally counterintuitive thing: I am going to provide a dungeon-type area.. an outbreak zone full of mutants and kill-bots and whatever, and let players start out by whomping them.

After a few sessions of whomping, they can get into personalities and plotlines and whatnot.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI had to laugh at the Finding Osama vignette.


But yeah, here's my thing: I just tell them where the entrance to the dungeon is.

See, campaigns are different at the beginning and in the middle and at the end, and the people who aren't prone to give you all the goals at the beginning of the campaign might not even know what they want their character to be, until perhaps they have tried him out a bit. And in that case, they're just looking for a place to try him out. In fantasy, you just provide a town and a dungeon full of encounters and let them whomp stuff for a while. They want to try out their powers and rack up some points before they emotionally commit to their characters inner life.

Then after session 4 (or 6 or 10) try asking again? Maybe you get a bit more. I had a situation like that in one of my fantasy campaigns that took like.. a couple of months before one of the players wanted to pursue subplots that I had dangled about his character-race and class (he had chosed an Elan Psion, so I threw out some plot points with other Elan and other psions.. and at first he didn't really want to pursue them.) After a while he got more comfortable and that became a major part of the campaign.

Ok, but if it's not in fantasy, what then? In my case I am working on this Mutants and Masterminds campaign and I plan on just doing the exactly wrong totally counterintuitive thing: I am going to provide a dungeon-type area.. an outbreak zone full of mutants and kill-bots and whatever, and let players start out by whomping them.

After a few sessions of whomping, they can get into personalities and plotlines and whatnot.

I think this works great, especially if you provide some interesting tid-bits of information during the womping.

Quote from: VBWyrdeI think this works great, especially if you provide some interesting tid-bits of information during the womping.

Yeah, you slip it in. Then 4 sessions later when they encounter the guy manufacturing kill bots or mutagens they go "oh thats the guy who caused that thing way back then!"