So...as grapple checks are a MAJOR part of play for my Vampire player in my McWoD game...I was curious if any has "fixed" the 3.5 grapple rules. Their just way to loose and seem way to easy to abuse to my liking. It would be best that I not have to build all my enemies to escape from grapples.

Why not let the guy excel at what he focused a lot of his resources on?

Assuming grappling in MCWoD is exactly like it is in 3.5, an easy response to it is multiple melee oriented foes. Joe doesn't have to be able to escape Vlad's grapple if he's got Tom, Dick, Harry, and Steve all beating on the vamp.

The Attack of Opportunity a grapple-target gets normally stops the grapple attempt from proceeding if it succeeds. If you aren't playing with that rule already, start. If you are, it stops a reasonable number of grapples, leaving it as one useful tactic amongst many.

Presumably if the character is focused on grappling he has Improved Grapple and ignores the AoOs. An enemy every now and then with Close Quarters Combat would be a surprise.

Use the Wrestling Rating rules from Classic D&D instead. You have to faff about with the initial armour class a little bit, but otherwise it'll work fine and be dead simple. They're in the Companion set, repeated in the Rules Cyclopedia.

Quote from: CabUse the Wrestling Rating rules from Classic D&D instead. You have to faff about with the initial armour class a little bit, but otherwise it'll work fine and be dead simple. They're in the Companion set, repeated in the Rules Cyclopedia.

What are those rules? I have Basic D&D, but not OD&D (that's "classic", right?) or the Rules Cyclopedia.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambWhat are those rules? I have Basic D&D, but not OD&D (that's "classic", right?) or the Rules Cyclopedia.

Briefly, every character has a wrestling rating. You get that by adding half level, rounding up, add your strength and dex bonuses (or penalties) and your unmodified armour class (9 for no armour, 7 for leather armour, 5 for chain armour, etc. Less armour you have for wrestling the better, magical armour counted at its base value ignoring AC). Roll 1d20, add your WR, compare that to your opponents roll + WR.

If your opponent chooses not to wrestle and just hits you, obviously you've got no weapons in your hand, no shield, you're easier to hit (bear in mind that this works alongside weapon mastery, which gives significant defensive bonuses to weapons). However, he doesn't get to ad WR to his roll, so he is easier to grab. You have four states in wrestling, free, grab, take down, pin, with more penalties associated with each. When you have pinned your foe you get to inflict damage.

Theres more to it than that (wrestling monsters, wrestling groups, impact on initiative, weapon mastery in wrestling, mystics (monks), etc.), but the bare bones are as described. Dead easy system, works fine. Obviously you'd have to do armour class the other way round (say, add 10-armour class rating of the armour), but it wouldn't take much fiddling with to make it work very, very well.

Quote from: CabBriefly, every character has a wrestling rating. You get that by adding half level, rounding up, add your strength and dex bonuses (or penalties) and your unmodified armour class (9 for no armour, 7 for leather armour, 5 for chain armour, etc. Less armour you have for wrestling the better, magical armour counted at its base value ignoring AC). Roll 1d20, add your WR, compare that to your opponents roll + WR.

If your opponent chooses not to wrestle and just hits you, obviously you've got no weapons in your hand, no shield, you're easier to hit (bear in mind that this works alongside weapon mastery, which gives significant defensive bonuses to weapons). However, he doesn't get to ad WR to his roll, so he is easier to grab. You have four states in wrestling, free, grab, take down, pin, with more penalties associated with each. When you have pinned your foe you get to inflict damage.

Theres more to it than that (wrestling monsters, wrestling groups, impact on initiative, weapon mastery in wrestling, mystics (monks), etc.), but the bare bones are as described. Dead easy system, works fine. Obviously you'd have to do armour class the other way round (say, add 10-armour class rating of the armour), but it wouldn't take much fiddling with to make it work very, very well.

Do you really see this as substantially simpler than 3.5?

Honestly, I've never understood what's so rough about grappling.  The core mechanics aren't bad at all; they just go to the trouble of detailing weird things than could possibly happen, too.

Every character has a Grapple Check.  This is their BAB + their Strength modifier + or - a size modifier (4 for every category away from Medium).

To initiate a grapple, you make a touch attack.  First, the opponent has a chance to smack you and your attempt stops if they hit.  The opponent's Touch AC should already be calculated, but it's their AC without Armor and Natural Armor.

If your Touch attack hits, make opposed Grapple rolls.  If you win, both of you are grappling.  If you fail, you're not.

If you're grappling, you can basically do 3 things (although other options are available if need be): Damage the other guy, Pin, and Escape.  All require opposed grapple checks.

...and that's pretty much it.  Sure, there's rules if you want to cast a spell, attack the other dude with a dagger, steal said dagger, and what happens if your buddy decides to join in.  I don't see anything in your example to cover these situations, either, so counting them in when you're talking about complexity is dirty pool.

-O

The big "fix" for the grappling rules was really precalculating the grappling values in the new statblocks.  Before, if you didn't use it much, you'd have to look up how to calculate it, then do a quick adding before starting the grapple.

Quote from: NicephorusThe big "fix" for the grappling rules was really precalculating the grappling values in the new statblocks.  Before, if you didn't use it much, you'd have to look up how to calculate it, then do a quick adding before starting the grapple.

I agree 100%.  Putting it on the character sheet helped, too.  I seriously don't see what's so hard about opposed rolls with pre-calculated numbers.

Calculating it on the fly under 3.0 was, indeed, a pain in the ass.  (And, in fairness, the rules were not well-worded in the 3.0 PHB.)  3.5 made a lot of the behind-the-scenes monster stats more accessible.

-O

The hilarious thing about this thread is it sort of implies (and almost kinda proves) that 3.5 grappling is just too simple.

Anyhow, I'm shocked to find myself agreeing with McMurray.

Only if you mean "fixed" as in neutered, as I can't remember any time we've actually dicked with it.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe hilarious thing about this thread is it sort of implies (and almost kinda proves) that 3.5 grappling is just too simple.

Anyhow, I'm shocked to find myself agreeing with McMurray.

And so it begins...

Quote from: James McMurrayAnd so it begins...

so who's the vorlons, and who's the shadows?



sorry, that's the first i think of when i hear that phrase :deflated:

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe hilarious thing about this thread is it sort of implies (and almost kinda proves) that 3.5 grappling is just too simple.

Anyhow, I'm shocked to find myself agreeing with McMurray.

As with most other parts of the SRD, the answer is Iron Heroes, which takes the basic grappling rules and adds things like lifting and throwing your opponent, and giving them piledrivers.