Quote from: GrimGentGathering together to tell an emotionally effective story, even if the emotions involved are unsettling, even if the twists of the tale are grotesque? That is art by definition. Saying so isn't pretentious.

So all catharsis is art? If I showed you a video of a child being raped and then pulled apart by dogs and left to die in a pile of feces, you'd certainly have an emotional reaction to it. You may even want to watch it again, to savour that frission of horror and disgust. Doesn't make it art - it's porn, plain and simple.

Because that's all those Poison'd sessions were - horror porn and emotional tourism created by a bunch of pretentious, tasteless, terribly misguided losers.

Quote from: GrimGentTheir sessions have included rape, and yes, I'd agree that those bits of APs could have done a much better job with representing the game to the public. Still, none of that comes from the text itself, but has been brought to the table by the players.

And the designer. I don't see how the way a designer plays his own game can possibly be bringing things to table that he didn't want to encourage in the design.

Have you actually read Baker's AP and comments about the play session? The guy designed and plays Poison'd specifically to explore brutality, rape, and abusive families. It's not about frickin' pirates - pirates are just the excuse to generate a lurid emotional catharsis from play-acting abuse and horror.

Quote from: RobNJWhy is playing a game where characters rape being taken as an endorsement of this behavior, rather than an exploration of the tragedy of evil behavior?

Endorsement has nothing to do with it. Sensible people realize that a bunch of jaded, balding geeks cannot generate a meaningful exploration of rape or any other genuinely evil behaviour by playing a game. Full stop.

it certainly seems that way.

i cannot imagine the mindset that sits down and wants to create that kind of game/adventure.

Quote from: HaffrungHave you actually read Baker's AP and comments about the play session? The guy designed and plays Poison'd specifically to explore brutulity, rape, and abusive families. It's not about frickin' pirates - pirates are just the excuse to generate a lurid emotional catharsis from play-acting abuse and horror.

The pirate crew as a dysfunctional family, with the dying captain as an abusive father figure whose condition is causing the already unhealthy relationships on the ship to degenerate? Sounds reasonable to me. Note, however, that what even a designer does with his game in no way informs my play unless it's somehow hardwired into the mechanics.

Man, GrimGent.  I have a feeling you own this game - or were exposed to it far earlier in the process.  Did you buy this at GenCon?

Cause, man, we won't hold it against you; you don't have to defend your purchase.

Quote from: walkerpSo now we get J Arcane and Koltar arguing that system does matter?  You guys are tripping all over yourselves in your righteous fury so much that you are starting to contradict your own theoretical positions.

Walker, my friend, you stumbled upon the truth of the matter, but not in the way you think.

See, if you go back to Mr. Gleichman's OP, you'll see that he was looking at this almost exclusively from the angle that this game is an example of The Forge design philosophy having it both ways.

Look, System Does Matter means one of a few things things:

• Only System Matters: In this case system rules supreme - the system will determine the kind of play.  If this is the case, then this game has serious problems. It either:

[LIST=A]

• was written in such a way that it promotes a horrible result of play in advertantly - in which case the designer needs to do some rework.
• was written to produce this kind of horrible result - in which case I'd rather not deal with the people involved on any level.

• System Matters Too: In this case, it's not the system that determines the resultant play, but the people at the table.  The people with who you are playing are going to matter more than how you deterine if the princess is saved - or raped. The game itself might or might not be used to create this kind of result. It has the capability and though the jury is still out on whether or not it promotes it, IMHO it appears to. In which case I'd rather not deal with the people who provided the APs of this game, including the author as he, too, was involved in one of the AP reports.
• System and People Matter: In this case, it's not one or the other, but the combination of the two.  The system might facilitate one style over another; changes to the system might change the play experience a bit in one direction or another. The play styles of the players at the table may or may not be enhanced by a specific aspect of the system. If this is the case, thenyou have a system that at least facilitates this behavior being played by a bunch of people who participated in having their characters act in this manner who then sat around and talked about how great it was. As you can probably guess, I'd rather not deal with the people who were involved.

Which is GNS/TBM? Any way you slice this, any of the three options that proponents of GNS/TBM decide is the one to which they adhere, something strange and fucked up happened here.  The problem that Mr. Gleichman is pointing out, I think, is that they've decided to move amongst these three when it fits them, to the one that is the least damaging to the Theory/Cause/Marketing(my belief) at the moment.  So in this case, System doesn't matter as much, because that would mean the system was fucked up - can't have that for a Forgery like Mr. Baker.

The most disturbing part to me is this - they don't see anything wrong with it.  They sat around in their circle of vicarious abusers and talked about how meaningful it all was. This was a good Story in their eyes. Which is why, I think, they don't have any qualms about claiming the system contributed to this play - they don't have a problem with the play itself. And if one does not have a problem with that kind of play combusting spontaneously from a rule set - well, then there are bigger issues than GNS/TBM.

And don't even get me started with how this fucks up the entire Gamist/Narrativist thing....

Quote from: GrimGentTheir sessions have included rape, and yes, I'd agree that those bits of APs could have done a much better job with representing the game to the public. Still, none of that comes from the text itself, but has been brought to the table by the players.

I agree w/ this: system doesn't matter.

But (and this is the point of this thread) some people believe System Does Matter in that the game system does create (or at least significantly contribute to) that kind of play.

Usually through use of what theory calls "reward systems."

If you buy the theory, the system is significantly responsible.

Nevertheless, I tend to focus on the people at the table, rather than the rules, myself.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd apparently these PEOPLE like sitting around and fantasizing about brutal rape and dismemberment and corpse mutilation.

So fucking what? I've got Carcass and Nuclear Death CDs on my shelf, I used to have Cannibal Corpse (one song title: Necropedophile, look up the lyrics) albums lying around and I've gotten promos from hundreds of shit-eating, corpse-fucking themed bands. I have Cannibal Holocaust on the DVD shelf and I will be getting I Spit On Your Grave again because the region 2 version here has director commentary. But this is all more obscure "You're a freak for even knowing what this shit is!" territory.

Going more mainstream, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre is all about the dismemberment (and cannibalism!), you have the Saw movies, etc. Last night I saw an episode of CSI that featured a 16 year old girl getting raped by two men while her parents were trapped in the closet, and then she was murdered later on after she refused to identify one of her assailants. Those aren't "cult classics," those are part of modern pop culture. And I just saw the first episode of some show called Dexter here on TV last week - about a serial killer cop who dismembers criminals.

edit: Also include examples from frickin comic books - Cerebus and Identity Crisis and Watchmen have rape as driving plot points in addition to all sorts of moral failings exhibited by the central characters...

Lots of people like sitting around and fantasizing about brutal rape and/or dismemberment and/or corpse mutilation. Lots. And then they tell people about it through various means. And apparently people from all walks of life like watching this kind of thing. It's not unusual.

Quote from: Kyle AaronThere's no actual crime or suffering going on, but it's still wrong.

I disagree. In the strongest terms possible. Without suffering or a victim, it's not possible to do wrong, in my opinion.

Quote from: Kyle AaronAnd no-one else should game with them, either. They make us look bad.

Yeah, that's a good reason for action.

Quote from: GrimGentThe pirate crew as a dysfunctional family, with the dying captain as an abusive father figure whose condition is causing the already unhealthy relationships on the ship to degenerate? Sounds reasonable to me.

Sounds misguided, creepy, and pretentious to me. Add in the detailed play-acting of the most brutal abuse and we're venturing into the realm of pathologically sadistic/masochistic. Also has fuck all to do with pirates.

Quote from: JimLotFPLots of people like sitting around and fantasizing about brutal rape and/or dismemberment and/or corpse mutilation. Lots. And then they tell people about it through various means. And apparently people from all walks of life like watching this kind of thing. It's not unusual.

Small sub-cultures of fetishistic weirdos are, in fact, unusual. Heck, social disaproval of the fetish is part of the allure.

Quote from: JimLotFPSo fucking what? I've got Carcass and Nuclear Death CDs on my shelf, I used to have Cannibal Corpse (one song title: Necropedophile, look up the lyrics) albums lying around and I've gotten promos from hundreds of shit-eating, corpse-fucking themed bands. I have Cannibal Holocaust on the DVD shelf and I will be getting I Spit On Your Grave again because the region 2 version here has director commentary. But this is all more obscure "You're a freak for even knowing what this shit is!" territory.

Please remind me not to come to your house for dinner...

Quote from: JimLotFPGoing more mainstream, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre is all about the dismemberment (and cannibalism!), you have the Saw movies, etc. Last night I saw an episode of CSI that featured a 16 year old girl getting raped by two men while her parents were trapped in the closet, and then she was murdered later on after she refused to identify one of her assailants. Those aren't "cult classics," those are part of modern pop culture. And I just saw the first episode of some show called Dexter here on TV last week - about a serial killer cop who dismembers criminals.

TCM - aimed at the teenager wallowing in gore for the gross out factor.  I forget - what was the capital-S-Story in that one again?  As for CSI, can you detail "featured?"  Because I'm pretty sure I've seen every episode, I don't recall one where they "feature" a 16 year old getting raped.  They may reference it, but I don't recall them showing it. And there's a huge difference.  If people thought the rapes happened of screen, or in the past, and these were all people trying to deal with it, many here, I think, would not be so concerned.  That's not the case. Dexter?  Never heard of it.  Do they show him killing and dismembering the people?

Quote from: JimLotFPLots of people like sitting around and fantasizing about brutal rape and/or dismemberment and/or corpse mutilation. Lots. And then they tell people about it through various means. And apparently people from all walks of life like watching this kind of thing. It's not unusual.

Lots?  Like 10% of the population? Or is it just that you can comfort youself by saying there are others who like it and even better when you rationalize it out to "lots."

Quote from: HaffrungEndorsement has nothing to do with it. Sensible people realize that a bunch of jaded, balding geeks cannot generate a meaningful exploration of rape or any other genuinely evil behaviour by playing a game. Full stop.

Clearly we differ on whether people playing a roleplaying game can generate a meaningful exploration of rape. Can't that be all? Can't we simply disagree and stop shitting on each other?

I said to somebody else in an Instant messaging conversation talking about all of this :

 What would have happened if a rape survivor /past victim of rape had been at GenCon and overheard this game going on or the intimate after conversation they did ?

 ...and her boyfriend/husband was with her ?

....or her girlfriend/longterm partner?


 Just a thought.

- Ed C.

Quote from: JimLotFP(one song title: Necropedophile, look up the lyrics)

Classy.

I'm guessing the lyrics are somehwat unpleasant.

Again, classy.

Quote from: RobNJClearly we differ on whether people playing a roleplaying game can generate a meaningful exploration of rape. Can't that be all? Can't we simply disagree and stop shitting on each other?

The best such an exercise can do is trivialize the act.  None of the APs showed any meaningful exploration of the subject, only the trivialization.  I'd even go so far as to say no one who hasn't been directly affected by such an act (as victim or as family member/close friend/significant other of the victim) could never meaningfully explore the subject.

I don't personally know the people involved, so I can't say how close they are to the subject.  But judging by their posts and the enthusiasm they had for making their characters perpetrate such acts, it's safe to say that they don't understand it at all.