Quote from: HaffrungQuite right - the game encourages sadistic and masochistic play. Getting your thrills from role-playing being raped is every bit as seedy, pretentious, and fucked up as getting your thrills from pretending to rape.

There's just no sense to discussing this from any point of view, is there?

"You play abusers." "Monstrous!"

"You play victims." "Perverse!"

"The game rewards atrocities." "Vile!"

"The game has some positive but mostly negative consequences for atrocities." "Lame!"

"The game punishes for atrocities." "Preachy!"

"The game includes a list of sins." "So everyone just has to tick them off one by one!"

"The game doesn't include detailed descriptions of those sins." "Aha, that's worse: then it forces you to imagine awful things!"

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, I'd argue that claming being able to get a moving story with emotional content out of a bloody roleplaying game is claiming high art.

Nope, I disagree. That's the old argument about whether RPGs can be art (which I believe that they can be), and even then it's pretty darn rare for anyone to declare that they are necessarily high art.

You never become emotionally involved with anything in your games? There are no moving reunions or revenges in your sessions?

GrimGent, walkerp, there's no way in Hell you guys can sew up this particular sow's ear of a game and convince people that it's a silk purse.

Thing is I reckon if

QuoteIn my opinion, if RPGs are about the power of imagination, then you have to accept that imagination can bring you into uncomfortable territory - trying to tame it with the equivalent of a decency code for RPGs is counterproductive, in my opinion.

really means 'I like making dick jokes' (and really, who doesn't?) its pretentious.

And I think it does. At least a little. Dude just wants to make dick jokes. Nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: jeff37923GrimGent, walkerp, there's no way in Hell you guys can sew up this particular sow's ear of a game and convince people that it's a silk purse.

You have clearly not absorbed anything I've written.  You have not read the game.  You have not played the game.

To make it clear for those of you who can't see past your pre-decided biases and emotional reactions, I am not defending the game.  I have not read it and  as I stated a while back, Pirates of the Spanish Main will suffice for my piratey gaming needs.  I am attacking all the silly knee-jerk moralism coming from a group who is full of bile against another group because they claim their playstyle has been attacked.  Basically, two wrongs don't make a right.

On top of it, which is really revealing that for most posters the motivation here has nothing to do with logic or morality but just any excuse to find a reason to hate a game, its designers and players as long as it comes from "the other camp", is that people are contradicting their own positions on Forge theory to find ways to attack a game they have neither read nor played.

That's bullshit and I'm calling it.  I'm not trying to make the game a silk purse.  But I'm not calling it a sow's ear either.

And just in general, I feel very much like I felt in 7th grade when the local freaked out fundamentalist parents decided to go after the after-school D&D program.  Same language, same hysteria, same moral superiority.  Kind of sucks that it comes from within the hobby this time, but then again these are the same people who have proven themselves so quick to hate the socially-uncool nerds, the "mouth-breathers" etc.

Quote from: Erik BoielleDude just wants to make dick jokes. Nothing wrong with that.

It could always be a really imaginative dick joke, though.

Quote from: GrimGent(Oh, and another little niggling detail which seems to get lost here: it's not only something that PCs are capable of committing like any other characters, but also something that they can suffer.)

Alright, then another "little detail" that should be considered then is that in game terms by enduring rape, a character gains brutality and becomes less effective at doing non-brutal things.

Real classy.

I'm helping with a sexual assault awareness campaign next month -- I wonder what the other committee member's comments on that point of view would be?

Quote from: StuartAlright, then another "little detail" that should be considered then is that in game terms by enduring rape, a character gains brutality and becomes less effective at doing non-brutal things.

Not if he actually endures it, which depends largely on the fortitude represented by Soul. As the result, the more a character has abused others in the past, the more brutal the humiliation of being abused in turn will make him. Someone more virtuous will suffer under the same circumstances, certainly, but the experience isn't going to turn him into a monster.

Quote from: walkerpI am attacking all the silly knee-jerk moralism coming from a group who is full of bile against another group because they claim their playstyle has been attacked. Basically, two wrongs don't make a right.

On top of it, which is really revealing that for most posters the motivation here has nothing to do with logic or morality but just any excuse to find a reason to hate a game, its designers and players as long as it comes from "the other camp", is that people are contradicting their own positions on Forge theory to find ways to attack a game they have neither read nor played.

I find the idea of turning rape into a tabletop roleplaying game to be vile.  It has nothing to do with whether this is a storygame, a traditional rpg, a cardgame or a wargame.  It's just wrong.

However, I believe there are a number of people defending this game (that they haven't read, and haven't played) specifically because they feel they need to support their "team" in whatever RPG culture war people like to pretend is taking place.

Quote from: walkerpAnd just in general, I feel very much like I felt in 7th grade when the local freaked out fundamentalist parents decided to go after the after-school D&D program. Same language, same hysteria, same moral superiority. Kind of sucks that it comes from within the hobby this time, but then again these are the same people who have proven themselves so quick to hate the socially-uncool nerds, the "mouth-breathers" etc.

That took place because of a misunderstanding about what kids were doing in the game, and was understandable given the way the media and certain religious groups were reporting things at the time.  The truth was there were no real spells, no summoned demons, no insanity, and no cults involved with your kids playing D&D.  Any parent that took the time to find out what D&D was really like stopped being afraid of it.  This issue was about fear and ignorance.

This issue is completely different.  It's not a matter of ignorance, as most of the people involved in the discussion aren't the uninformed public, but Vincent's peers (even if we're not all chummy, we're all fellow gamers and game designers).  Nobody is making claims of things taking place in the game that the game designer himself hasn't reported.  No amount of reading a game, or sitting in on a game session where Rape is put forward in the way presented here would make this something I'd find acceptable.  This issue is about morality and responsibility.

Quote from: GrimGentNot if he actually endures it, which depends largely on the fortitude represented by Soul. As the result, the more a character has abused others in the past, the more brutal the humiliation of being abused in turn will make him. Someone more virtuous will suffer under the same circumstances, certainly, but the experience isn't going to turn him into a monster.

Sounds like there are quite complex rules for raping and being raped.

What other sins would you have to suffer being inflicted on you that you would need to endure and look at fortitude saving throws and what not?

Quote from: StuartI find turning the idea of turning rape into a tabletop roleplaying game to be vile.

And again: it's not "a game about rape." According to the folks who have read the book, even the word is mentioned only twice in the rules, once as a "sin" that can be committed and once as an "abuse" that can be suffered, and in neither case does the text elaborate on those any further. There's no special section on "raping for fun and profit."

Quote from: StuartSounds like there are quite complex rules for raping and being raped.

It's been repeated several times now, but hey, it bears repeating: there are no rules or mechanics specifically for rape in the game. None whatsoever. As far as the system is concerned, it's no different from any other sin against another character. The game treats them all identically.

This is Vincent's motivation for creating this game:

QuoteI remember, like, 1995 or whenever, me and Emily coming out of Cutthroat Island with Geena Davis. I was clutching my head. I said, "they'll never, ever, ever let me make a pirate movie. Know why? Because it'd be Reservoir Dogs on a boat." Look at Pirates of the stupid Caribbean, even. There's Elizabeth Swann on board the Black Pearl, and all the pirates are leering and closing around her, and she shouts out "parlay," right? There's a threat there. And we know that in Disney's Caribbean, the threat will never come true, but in my movie, my Reservoir Dogs on a boat? We don't know any such thing. In my movie Elizabeth Swann is in danger. When that scene starts, you in the audience don't know whether this is the scene where I (as writer-director) back away from brutality or the scene where the gloves come off.

You can play any game with a subset of the rules.  You could play a non vile game using FATAL or RaHoWa or Creepy Pervert Game X -- but that doesn't change the fact of what the game is, why it was created, or what it's encouraging.

I don't really have the same point of view as anyone on this board (or any board really) on RPG theory.  I think System certainly matters.  A lot.  If I made a rule in D&D that says: "You can reroll any dice you want, as long as you say something filthy and pirate like" then it would be almost inevitable that filthy pirate talk would ensue.  Yes, people could choose not to use that special rule -- but more likely they'd say "Yeah... this isn't the game for me."

This game gives you mechanical reward for committing rape.  And from the play reports we've been discussing, and the comments of the game designer himself, that's exactly what you get.

Quote from: GrimGentIt's been repeated several times now, but hey, it bears repeating: there are no rules or mechanics specifically for rape in the game. None whatsoever. As far as the system is concerned, it's no different from any other sin against another character. The game treats them all identically.

I'll repeat it:  What other sins would you have to suffer being inflicted on you that you would need to endure and look at fortitude saving throws and what not?

It's basically Torture and Rape.

Quote from: StuartThis game gives you mechanical reward for committing rape.

And this reward is... what, precisely? That the character becomes capable of committing the same crime again with less qualms but at the cost of his humanity? How exactly does that differ from, say, the morality systems in the various WoD games?