It wouldn't matter if it were edited in or not; I've consistently said that the people responsible for the sick shit or brilliant stuff in any game session are the players and GM involved, not the game designer. I've always said that, and I've said it in this thread. My very first comment in this thread said,
   "Me, as you all know I say, "fuck system, people matter." Your game session is an expression of you. So if your game is twisted and fucked-up, it's you. If your game session is brilliant and interesting and fun, it's you. You, the player or GM, get the blame and the credit for everything that happens at the game table. The system's just a tool.

"Some tools are better or wose for some jobs than others, but in the end it's a bad tradesman who blames his tools, and a modest tradesman who credits them. People matter to the outcome of a game session much much more than any system."
Again, reading people's posts makes responding to them much easier, and your response more relevant and useful and interesting. (For example, some of the people on rpg.net praising "System Does Matter" and other aspects of Forger theory would do well to actually read it.) It's not like I'm expecting you, as they do on the Forge, to remember or go digging for something I wrote years ago in some dead thread. I wrote it in this thread, several times.

I'll say it again: we don't know about the actual game Poison'd, though the authour's account of it gives it the credit or blame for what came out in play, I believe what comes out in play comes from the players and GM involved. Game systems are inspiring, not determining.

Fuck system, people matter.

Quote from: James J SkachI'm unclear - are you accusing Kyle of editing his post so it would look good to respond to you that way?

No, just that the end of the post was edited while I was writing the reply. The point is that we already have enough snippets from the folks who have actually read the book to know how the basics of the system work, and that it includes a fair number of alternative directions into which a character might develop. Notably, a PC doesn't have commit a single sin during the game. Keeping your Soul intact gives you as much of an edge during play as raising your Devil, even though it may prove more difficult.

Quote from: GrimGentThe point is that we already have enough snippets from the folks who have actually read the book to know how the basics of the system work, and that it includes a fair number of alternative directions into which a character might develop. Notably, a PC doesn't have commit a single sin during the game. Keeping your Soul intact gives you as much of an edge during play as raising your Devil, even though it may prove more difficult.

Okay, so why do you think that two of the first groups who have played Poison'd, including the designer's own group, have used the game as a stage to perform savage sexual psycho-dramas? I'm not suggesting that's the only way the game can be played, but it seems pretty clear to me that the designer had just those sorts of pushing-the-envelope-of-graphic-brutality sessions in mind when he wrote the book. And he applauds the grotesque scenes described in those APs as moving, incredibly intimate experiences. Mission accomplished. Why not take his word for what he was trying to facilitate with the design?

Is anyone changing anyone else's mind after 450+ posts?

- Kent

Quote from: HaffrungOkay, so why do you think that two of the first groups who have played Poison'd, including the designer's own group, have used the game as a stage to perform savage sexual psycho-dramas? I'm not suggesting that's the only way the game can be played, but it seems pretty clear to me that the designer had just those sorts of pushing-the-envelope-of-graphic-brutality sessions in mind when he wrote the book. And he applauds the grotesque scenes described in those APs as moving, incredibly intimate experiences. Mission accomplished. Why not take his word for what he was trying to facilitate with the design?

Indeed.  I don't get how anyone can even see it as up for debate at this point.

It's a game about encouraging the players to do abominable and disgusting things.  It's creator seems to be quite proud of that.  He also has a history of creating games about encouraging the players to do abominable things. We've got multiple actual play accounts, in which the players raped and violated and mutilated everything in sight.  

We've got motive, prior record, confession, evidence, and eyewitness testimony, all to the same end.  Case closed.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's a game about encouraging the players to do abominable and disgusting things.  It's creator seems to be quite proud of that.  He also has a history of creating games about encouraging the players to do abominable things.

Characters. Not players.

Very, very important distinction.

Quote from: JimLotFPCharacters. Not players.

Very, very important distinction.

Characters whose decisions are made entirely in the minds of the players.

And the players decided to decapitate a boy and then fuck it in the throat.

If my favourite artist, musician, film maker etc suddenly produced something that was clearly over-the-line I wouldn't waste my time falling all over myself defending it.  I might say their previous work was still good, or that there were good things about the current work... but I'd evaluate the current work based on it's own merits.

I can understand some people not being bothered by the subject matter... but rushing to defend it is something else.

Based on Vincent Baker's own promotional material, and his cited reasons for creating his new game, it's about adding brutal rape to an RPG about Pirates.  

If you don't think a game that gives you mechanical benefits to roleplaying a rapist-as-protagonist is reprehensible  -- is there any limit to what you'd accept from a game?

Quote from: J ArcaneCharacters whose decisions are made entirely in the minds of the players.

It is still complete fiction. There is no actual raping or killing going on. There is no actual murder victim or rape victim here.

Of course it's fictional. But it's still disturbing, and still wrong.

It's like, say, a paedophile who orders himself a RealDoll in the shape of a child, then molests it. There's no actual crime or suffering going on, but it's still wrong.

I'm not going to game with someone who wants to roleplay a rapist, a child murderer or necrophiliac, whether trivially or seriously. I'll just say, "no, you don't do that," and if they persist I'll walk away and leave them to masturbate into their own faeces or whatever they do to amuse themselves when alone. And no-one else should game with them, either. They make us look bad. What Fred Phelps is to Christianity, these guys are to gaming.

Sometimes things are wrong even when they cause no direct and obvious harm. Some things are just inherently wrong.

Quote from: JimLotFPIt is still complete fiction. There is no actual raping or killing going on. There is no actual murder victim or rape victim here.

Jimmy, you've really missed the point on why people find it sick.

Its the gamer version of : Just because you can do something , that doesn't mean that you should.

Its not just that they had their characters raping - its that they enjoyed talking about it and thought it was all "special" and intimate. When really they're just jaded bored people that don't know there are moral lines that just aren't normally crossed.

This is a game designer roping people into his little bag of issues and thinking its oh-so edgey - when its just poor taste and badly written.

This like the RPG version of "The Producers" - only these people are taking themselves seriously and don't know that they've lost their way.

 No matter how people keep re-phrasing it ...its still folks trying to defend brutal rape scenes as RPG.

Quote from: StuartI can understand some people not being bothered by the subject matter... but rushing to defend it is something else.

That is actually very much the point of the whole thing. I would interpret it as if the reveal something about themselves they need to confirm it is not true. But hell now I will be moral bullying and overcondifent about my moral rightness and whatever.

But hell I don't care. If you are sicko, you are sicko. And no dramatic speeches will change it, whatever you try to pretend. :raise:

Quote from: HaffrungOkay, so why do you think that two of the first groups who have played Poison'd, including the designer's own group, have used the game as a stage to perform savage sexual psycho-dramas?

I couldn't say, frankly: perhaps it is because those people have chosen to play savage and unrepentant sinners, and rape is the most savage sin that they could think of. However, that is purely a choice on the part of the players, since the system treats that particular violation no differently from any other sin on the list. As said over at the other site, the game itself includes no mechanics specifically for raping someone, nor for the consequences of the act. All the book does is mention the possibility of it happening.

(Oh, and another little niggling detail which seems to get lost here: it's not only something that PCs are capable of committing like any other characters, but also something that they can suffer.)

Temple said, over in the Heart of darkness

QuotePoison'd for us became an excercise in collecting Xes in preparation for fights, against a backdrop of horrible, wicked pirates. And it was a blast! We laughed and shuddered at the horrible things our pirates did (which ranged from forced amputations to rape and good old fashioned violence), we were right there, right now in the fight scenes, cheering each other on, making each other laugh and having an awesome time the whole evening.

More AP from the artistic elite. I think it is now clear that this game is a tastful examination of the dark side of mans soul and not at all an excuse for fat, balding gamers to get yucks from pretending to ass rape nuns with badgers.

It is Classy. Well fifth, I was so wrong. How could I doubt the artistic integrity of the forge!!!!!

Quote from: Erik Boielle...a tastful examination of the dark side of mans soul...

Who has even attempted to claim that? From the start, it's been no secret that the focus of the game is on unpleasant people doing and enduring unpleasant things in an "atmosphere of brutality."