So over on that other site, there are two threads: one is a thread about the, IMO, rather fabulous new Changeling rpg. The other is about some indie game called 'Poison'd', which is about realistic pirates (ie mature themes, readers). Sounds reasonable.

The first thread however features plenty of people who are somewhat uncomfortable at Changeling's implicit victim nature. People are auncomfortable with that as a role an issues of being a rape victim are mentioned (that's not the game i'm reading, but ymmv).

The second features plaudits for a game where eopel commit pretty disgusting acts. Actual play stuff being reported is pretty grim indeed.

No on the face of it that's fine and I don't have a problem with that per se. My point is that what's cool for poison'd isn't cool, despite being much worse, for Changeling. One game you can commit vile acts because it's a cool indie game, the other gets it's fair share of the lash.

Hmmm.

Quote from: signoftheserpentMy point is that what's cool for poison'd isn't cool, despite being much worse, for Changeling. One game you can commit vile acts because it's a cool indie game, the other gets it's fair share of the lash.

What seems to bother some folks with CtL is the notion that in the past all the PCs have been "abused" in a very wide sense of the word, and based on snippets of information they fixate on one specific interpretation of what that might mean. That, I'd say, is little different from what is going on in the various Poison'd threads: posters latch on to an idea of what the game must be like and how it must be played. In both games, committing those "vile acts" would render a character more hardened and callous, through a loss in their stats (Soul in Poison'd, Clarity in Changeling). The difference, and the problem for many, is that for a pirate who's trying to impress his crew and terrify his victims through brutality that change might temporarily prove beneficial, unlike for one of the Lost who has no inherent reason to harm anyone except perhaps his Fetch and Keeper. Of course, that doesn't prevent anyone from playing an abused but righteous cabin boy out for revenge in the game about pirates, or a serial killer ogre who eats his victims in the game about the fae.

In CtL the nature of abuse is left absolutely wide open. In fact I wouldn't even use that word. It is also my understanding, thus far having not read it all, that lack of Clairty doesn't mean you commit vile acts per se. However in Poison'd those vile acts, certainly as brazenly exemplified, seem intrinsic and neccesary.

At the very least in one you are an empowered, of sorts, victim. In the other you are just a very very vicious thug. I see no value whatsoever in the latter.

Quote from: signoftheserpentAt the very least in one you are an empowered, of sorts, victim. In the other you are just a very very vicious thug. I see no value whatsoever in the latter.

Going by what I've read so far, you can play a victim in Poison'd as well: enduring hardship increases your ability to endure more hardship until very little can genuinely hurt you when compared to what you've already been through. Playing a thug is certainly a PC option, but it's far from the only one.

As I understand it, the loss of Clarity in Changeling brings you closer to the solipsistic amorality of the True Fae and makes it more difficult to distinguish between reality and fantasy. In some ways it works slightly differently from human morality (especially as depicted in the nWoD core), but committing abuse and atrocities will still incur penalties.

Quote from: signoftheserpentThe first thread however features plenty of people who are somewhat uncomfortable at Changeling's implicit victim nature. People are auncomfortable with that as a role an issues of being a rape victim are mentioned (that's not the game i'm reading, but ymmv).

I think some people are taken aback by the new Changeling's clever inversion of how most WoD games work. In most WoD games, you have this transformative experience, you become a monster with kewl powerz, and you never look back. Werewolves and Mages don't try to stop being Werewolves and Mages, by and large, and even vampires seeking Golconda are essentially trying to get a means of keeping the kewl powerz without having to suck blood.

Changelings, conversely, are trying to get normal again. They've had this thing happen to them, they're inherently out of step with the world they were meant to be part of all along, and what they are inherently trying to do is become normal, ordinary people again.

Quite honestly, CtL is for me one of the best games I have ever seen. Storytelling or not.

(though I haven't read it all yet)

Quote from: GrimGentGoing by what I've read so far, you can play a victim in Poison'd as well: enduring hardship increases your ability to endure more hardship until very little can genuinely hurt you when compared to what you've already been through. Playing a thug is certainly a PC option, but it's far from the only one.

As I understand it, the loss of Clarity in Changeling brings you closer to the solipsistic amorality of the True Fae and makes it more difficult to distinguish between reality and fantasy. In some ways it works slightly differently from human morality (especially as depicted in the nWoD core), but committing abuse and atrocities will still incur penalties.

Well from the disgusting reportage on rpg.net the game seems to revel in it's 'realism'.

Or maybe it's just the players.

But it's cool because of it's nature as an indie game and because of who wrote it.

Smells like typical rpg.net spirit to me.

Quote from: WarthurI think some people are taken aback by the new Changeling's clever inversion of how most WoD games work. In most WoD games, you have this transformative experience, you become a monster with kewl powerz, and you never look back. Werewolves and Mages don't try to stop being Werewolves and Mages, by and large, and even vampires seeking Golconda are essentially trying to get a means of keeping the kewl powerz without having to suck blood.

Changelings, conversely, are trying to get normal again. They've had this thing happen to them, they're inherently out of step with the world they were meant to be part of all along, and what they are inherently trying to do is become normal, ordinary people again.

Actually that's not 100% accurate; Changelings are not necessarily trying to get back to normality. Some are, some aren't. Most are trying to come to terms with what has happened and who/what they now are. Some like what they now have, despite the cost. What they aren't is monsters.

And they certainly don't go around (IMHO) behaving like depraved video nasty cabin boys on heat.

Quote from: signoftheserpentWell from the disgusting reportage on rpg.net the game seems to revel in it's 'realism'.

That's admittedly an odd word to use about a game that features curses, ghosts and deals with the Devil, not only as superstitions among sailors but as part of the mechanics.

Quote from: signoftheserpentWhat they aren't is monsters.

Well, not necessarily, but they can be. Many of them feast on the fears of mortals, after all.

Quote from: GrimGentThat's admittedly an odd word to use about a game that features curses, ghosts and deals with the Devil, not only as superstitions among sailors but as part of the mechanics.

I haven't read the game and would have given it short shrift having first read how it can be read in 30 mins. Sounded more like an idea with a couple of cool 'nifties' than a complete game product.

However when i read how people were fucking decapitated heads I through 'ugh'. More so than any other titilating rpg crap I've heard about over the years.

Anyway, for all I know it could be the most well written text in existence, it just won't be read by me.

Quote from: GrimGentWell, not necessarily, but they can be. Many of them feast on the fears of mortals, after all.

Yes that's true; it's just not like Vampire where you are by definition a monster. It's just how you deal with that. Changelings can be, but they can also not be.

Quote from: signoftheserpentYes that's true; it's just not like Vampire where you are by definition a monster. It's just how you deal with that. Changelings can be, but they can also not be.

The game's about finding your place in a world that no longer seems to have a place for you, true. It's up to the individual players to decide how they go about it: that could mean brutally murdering the Fetch and trying to take its place, or leaving your old life alone and instead seeking a new one among the rest of the fae.

Quote from: signoftheserpentThe second features plaudits for a game where eopel commit pretty disgusting acts. Actual play stuff being reported is pretty grim indeed.

Except for, you know, all the people who said they were disgusted by the actual play in that thread.  

People over here are quoting that thread very selectively.

Quote from: signoftheserpentHowever when i read how people were fucking decapitated heads I through 'ugh'. More so than any other titilating rpg crap I've heard about over the years.

None of that came from the book itself, though, which apparently only specifies what the mechanical consequences of sinning are, and that rape or murder are possible sins; but  since that is also true of consensual adultery, you might as easily play a roguish Casanova hated by husbands at every port. In the thread over at RPGnet, even the people present during the actual game session mentioned being taken aback by her character's behaviour: as always, it's all about what the group brings to the game.