I ordered the 384 page hardcover PHB, as possible RPG inspirational material.  The price is very reasonable right now, on Amaz, with free 2 day shipping, too.  So I gave in, and dropped the coin.

Anyway, this is a genuine inquiry; not an advertisement.  I have heard of the WFRPG, but i have never seen it in person.  I think I heard that Zweihander, is "very" similar.

What have I jumped off into?

I did a similar thing and got Blackbirds which is powered by Zweihander.  But, I have not cracked it open yet.

I own the original version of Zwei, but then a revised version came out shortly thereafter and I wasn't impressed enough by the one I bought to buy the new one. I also passed on the Main Gauche expansion, but I don't really know much about what it contains.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 25, 2025, 02:32:05 AMI own the original version of Zwei, but then a revised version came out shortly thereafter and I wasn't impressed enough by the one I bought to buy the new one. I also passed on the Main Gauche expansion, but I don't really know much about what it contains.

I read somewhere, that the PHB is essentially the first 10 chapters of the big core rulebook.  Just what players would need in their hands.  Nothing more.  No bestiary, etc. 

The main stuff I'm interested in; are the professions, the talents, the backgrounds, the flavor, and an explanation of the game's mechanics.

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 25, 2025, 12:31:34 AMI ordered the 384 page hardcover PHB, as possible RPG inspirational material.  The price is very reasonable right now, on Amaz, with free 2 day shipping, too.  So I gave in, and dropped the coin.

Anyway, this is a genuine inquiry; not an advertisement.  I have heard of the WFRPG, but i have never seen it in person.  I think I heard that Zweihander, is "very" similar.

What have I jumped off into?

Which version?   I really hope you're already aware that they're coming out with a new edition later this year and kickstarted it last year...

I bought the starter set because I wanted to see the components and because it was dirt cheap despite being chock full of stuff.   While I like grim and dark low magic low fantasy, it's a bit too grimey for my tastes as a setting and I'm not particularly fond of percentile systems mechanically so it really was just to check out a well done starter.   Then there is the issue of Daniel Fox being a massive asshole consistently for years (most recently this week when he posted a TDS meme about vampiric touch the day the Pope died not on his personal page but the official Zwei game page) but, at the time, he wasn't the owner of the Zwei property when I got the starter but he is again now.  Additionally, the starter was dirt cheap because he was trying to get rid of copies because a little over a month after I got it he announced the then upcoming kickstarter for the new edition.

Zweihander is awesome. Nice streamlining/updating of WFRP 2e. I like to use it to run old WFRP material. I'm currently running a campaign that's been going strong for a year and a half, and may last that long yet (if the party survives). My group includes former Games Workshop employees, one of whom was the first person in the US to receive a copy of WFRP 1e, when he worked at their Baltimore HQ and did convention stuff for them.

Zweihander has several small but significant rules changes from its source. I like that it's an all-in-one resource, more like WFRP 1e. I was not a fan of WFRP 2e'd "slim rulebook and a million splatbooks" model.

It's overwritten as hell, which makes it harder to use than it needs to be. This is being remedied in the new, or Reforged Edition, which will maintain full backwards compatibility with previous editions.

If you are planning to run Zweihander, you're gonna want that core book. Or, you may want to pre-order the Reforged edition. I really like the Main Gauche book, too.

Pundit has a long standing feud with The author of the game, Daniel Fox. Many hate the author for his liberal politics, spammy marketing (and "spammy" is really underselling it here), an a general perception of duplicitousness. A lot of people will try to tell you it's a "rip-off", but that's no truer of Zweihander than it is of any other retro-clone. In fact, there's more daylight between Zweihander and WFRP than there is between most OSR games and B/X. So, form your own opinion, and be wary of those who try to tell you the game sucks, when they really mean that they hate its author.

Which isn't to say that there are no legitimate criticisms of Zweihander, or that everyone who doesn't like it is being dishonest about why (though many are). I've mentioned its being overwritten. I've seen criticism of the fact that you cannot Counterspell any "Instantaneous" Spell (which is the same in WFRP 2e). I'm also not a fan of metacurrencies in any game, but that's a personal preference. These things haven't been barriers to my, or my group's enjoyment of the game. It's well suited to long campaigns.

The Reforged edition will maintain backwards compatibility, while adding some new dimensions (I know because I backed it, and I've seen the first 10 chapters).

Quote from: RNGm on April 25, 2025, 09:11:22 AMI bought the starter set because I wanted to see the components and because it was dirt cheap despite being chock full of stuff.   While I like grim and dark low magic low fantasy, it's a bit too grimey for my tastes as a setting and I'm not particularly fond of percentile systems mechanically so it really was just to check out a well done starter.   Then there is the issue of Daniel Fox being a massive asshole consistently for years (most recently this week when he posted a TDS meme about vampiric touch the day the Pope died) but, at the time, he wasn't the owner of the Zwei property when I got the starter but he is again now.  Additionally, the starter was dirt cheap because he was trying to get rid of copies because a little over a month after I got it he announced the then upcoming kickstarter for the new edition.

Imagine being this thin skinned about maymays lol

They went hard woke pretty quickly, which you can see with the dedicated LGBT supplement and the Flames of Freedom spinoff game that does a Hamilton-like pozzing of the American revolution.

Quote from: Spobo on April 25, 2025, 10:26:14 AMThey went hard woke pretty quickly, which you can see with the dedicated LGBT supplement and the Flames of Freedom spinoff game that does a Hamilton-like pozzing of the American revolution.

No question that Zweihander is woke but the LGBT supplement is a third party product

Quote from: RNGm on April 25, 2025, 08:25:00 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 25, 2025, 12:31:34 AMI ordered the 384 page hardcover PHB, as possible RPG inspirational material.  The price is very reasonable right now, on Amaz, with free 2 day shipping, too.  So I gave in, and dropped the coin.

Anyway, this is a genuine inquiry; not an advertisement.  I have heard of the WFRPG, but i have never seen it in person.  I think I heard that Zweihander, is "very" similar.

What have I jumped off into?

Which version?   I really hope you're already aware that they're coming out with a new edition later this year and kickstarted it last year...

Yeah, I'm fine with that.  I'm just checking out my first d100 system.  I don't intend to buy all the books, and newer isn't always better, etc.

I'm interested in the lower fantasy / more dangerous consequences aspect of it.

Quote from: RNGm on April 25, 2025, 09:11:22 AMThen there is the issue of Daniel Fox being a massive asshole consistently for years

Quote from: JanDevries on April 25, 2025, 09:28:40 AMPundit has a long standing feud with The author of the game, Daniel Fox. Many hate the author for his liberal politics, spammy marketing (and "spammy" is really underselling it here), an a general perception of duplicitousness.

These points worth isolating and repeating. If you are on this board there is a really good chance Daniel Fox hates you.

Quote from: JanDevries on April 25, 2025, 12:47:53 PM

Quote from: Spobo on April 25, 2025, 10:26:14 AMThey went hard woke pretty quickly, which you can see with the dedicated LGBT supplement and the Flames of Freedom spinoff game that does a Hamilton-like pozzing of the American revolution.

No question that Zweihander is woke but the LGBT supplement is a third party product

I think it is official, it's published through their page on drivethru. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/331633/lgbt-in-a-grim-and-perilous-world-supplement-for-zweihander-rpg?

Quote from: Spobo on April 25, 2025, 02:28:18 PM

Quote from: JanDevries on April 25, 2025, 12:47:53 PM

Quote from: Spobo on April 25, 2025, 10:26:14 AMThey went hard woke pretty quickly, which you can see with the dedicated LGBT supplement and the Flames of Freedom spinoff game that does a Hamilton-like pozzing of the American revolution.

No question that Zweihander is woke but the LGBT supplement is a third party product

I think it is official, it's published through their page on drivethru. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/331633/lgbt-in-a-grim-and-perilous-world-supplement-for-zweihander-rpg?

Wow, $10 for a 20 page pdf that doesn't have a single rule in it (don't worry, I just read the free preview rather than give them money). The author even says, "I am not an expert in LGBT history or culture". At that price, an expert should have hired. But it seems this is published by someone called Gwen Bloodmoon rather than Zweihander Games.

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 25, 2025, 12:53:48 PM

Quote from: RNGm on April 25, 2025, 08:25:00 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 25, 2025, 12:31:34 AMI ordered the 384 page hardcover PHB, as possible RPG inspirational material.  The price is very reasonable right now, on Amaz, with free 2 day shipping, too.  So I gave in, and dropped the coin.

Anyway, this is a genuine inquiry; not an advertisement.  I have heard of the WFRPG, but i have never seen it in person.  I think I heard that Zweihander, is "very" similar.

What have I jumped off into?

Which version?   I really hope you're already aware that they're coming out with a new edition later this year and kickstarted it last year...

Yeah, I'm fine with that.  I'm just checking out my first d100 system.  I don't intend to buy all the books, and newer isn't always better, etc.

I'm interested in the lower fantasy / more dangerous consequences aspect of it.

Greetings!

Man At Arms, while I have heard some people praise Zweihander--like JanDevries--I have also not just read many others claiming that the game is terribly Woke--but I have read plenty of Mr. Daniel Fox and his discussions with others.

I'm also an old fan of WFRP. WFRP 2E was also outstanding. With Zweihander, I would advise you to save your money, and pass this game by entirely. "Don't give money to people that hate you!"--as the saying goes, right?

Of course, you can choose to swim upstream, as it were. I would proceed with strong caution though in making any purchases.

I wouldn't buy Zweihander.

If you are just chomping to get into a D100 system--I would say Mythras would be a safer bet. The guys at Black Lodge Games did a preview of Mythras, and praise the game very highly. No signs of that game being Woke, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK