Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2025, 08:09:18 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2025, 04:57:08 PMI get where you're coming from, but from a Christian perspective, shouldn't you be more upset that D&D co-opted the imagery of angels into a pagan cosmology to begin with?

  D&D didn't have angels until 3.5. Gygax was quite clear that devas were not angels in the pages in DRAGON Magazine, and the game didn't call them by that name until that revision. By that point, you could have full-fledged demon and devil worshippers as PCs.

Isn't that just hiding behind a name change to be polite though?


I mean, come on. Those are angels.

Yet are angels first found in Christianity or Zoroastrianism which predates Judaism?

Quote from: bat on April 24, 2025, 10:37:38 AMYet are angels first found in Christianity or Zoroastrianism which predates Judaism?

The D&D entries aren't even real angels anyway. 

Biblically accurate angels are either completely human-looking -or- they're  eye-covered wheels of fire and forms so disturbing they have to shield their true form behind four of their six wings so you don't die from just looking at them while telling those they appear to essentially "don't panic!!!"

Whenever I run something Fantasy, I always go for Biblically accurate angels that don't even bother with things like stat blocks. Man may call corporeal entities native to a hostile dimension demons, but even the lowest angel will just say "that's cute" and blorp it back where it belongs as an irresistible free action. You don't want to deal with real fallen angels... at all.

So by the same token any sort of non-beyond all stats being is basically just an alien from another dimension (D&D "gods" are too; something I borrowed from Palladium and have never regretted) and I actually prefer terms like Deva or Guardinal or Eladrin for those for that reason.

I'm not going to argue about what is and is not an angel according to the Bible, because in the actual book angels are some weird shit that looks like Hellraiser with white feathers.

However, let's not pretend that Christianity hasn't been all-in on beautiful people with white feathered wings since the Renaissance. It totally has, and those early D&D depictions of angels are how Christians think of angels. In fact, I'd put up $100 that a random atheist is more likely to know that angels are actually spheres made up of 7000 eyeballs than a random Christian who reads the Bible and prays regularly.

Quote from: Corolinth on April 24, 2025, 05:13:49 PMI'm not going to argue about what is and is not an angel according to the Bible, because in the actual book angels are some weird shit that looks like Hellraiser with white feathers.

However, let's not pretend that Christianity hasn't been all-in on beautiful people with white feathered wings since the Renaissance. It totally has, and those early D&D depictions of angels are how Christians think of angels. In fact, I'd put up $100 that a random atheist is more likely to know that angels are actually spheres made up of 7000 eyeballs than a random Christian who reads the Bible and prays regularly.

Agreed. To the point -- D&D devas and planars are clearly intended to be angels, as is the figure from the image in the OP, like how devas/planars are picture in the original 1990s Planescape.

Again, though, D&D clearly has never been intended to be real theology. It's only the Satanic Panic and B.A.D.D. who tried to cast D&D players as being real-life evil because of in-game paganism and spells.

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As an aside, like almost everything else, the descriptions of angels varies widely in the Bible. It's not correct to say that angels are really spheres. For example, in Ezekiel 1 that describes the thrones (wheels), it also describes winged angels now identified as cherubim.

QuoteThe center of the fire looked like glowing metal, and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. Such were their faces. They each had two wings spreading out upward, each wing touching that of the creature on either side; and each had two other wings covering its body.

From DRAGON #67: "The deva

So how about the official new creature, the deva? (It is pronounced with a long "e" — deevah, with the accent on the first syllable.) Some oddly oriented chap accused me of plagiarism because the religion and myth of India mentions devas. (Good gracious! I do hope that when this fellow checks out the Monster Manual he will forgive me. . . . And what will he think of Tolkien, I wonder, who took virtually everything he wrote about from a background of Norse mythology and English folklore? And R. E. Howard! Why, almost all of his names are taken directly from actual history! Mercy! Such high-handed theft!) Those Enlightened Readers familiar with theosophy will immediately be able to recognize from whence I got inspiration for the three races of devas, and their more powerful associates the planetars and solars. Because the races of devas are native to the Upper Outer Planes, their frequency is given for such areas. As is stated, they travel about in service to the deities of these planes and do not generally ramble about on persona! pleasure jaunts. If fans of demons and devils find them too strong, I can hardly wait until they get a look at what planetars and solars are able to do! (Editor's note: This essay was composed before the issue of DRAGON Magazine containing the planetar and solar had been released.) Although there are fewer of these servants of Good, they are far and away stronger than the minions of Evil. A strong character can handle the typical demon or devil. With aid from a deva or two, any party of Good alignment can hope to survive the dire machinations of morally and ethically aligned foes with the forces of Darkness to call upon. While they should be seldom met, the potential is always there.

Although illustrated as male, the races of devas are similar to humans in that they have male and female sexes. They are bipedal and somewhat resemble humans, but they are in no sense human. In fact, they are nothing like the angels of Judeo-Christian teaching, or Moslem,for that matter, as they are a race, have no direct descent due to creation by a supreme being, and have corporal forms everywhere, save the Prime Material Plane where they have material forms but immortality. Devas have wings in order to fly — just as giant eagles and rocs do. For much the same reason, quite a number of the monstrous inhabitants of the Lower Outer Planes have wings. After all, AD&D gaming is postulated on medieval fantasy and mythology. Because there are hordes of nasty critters at work to promote Evil (and provide fodder for swordplay), it is necessary to have some reasonable' minions serving the opposing planes in the mythical multiverse of the game. To state that devas are patterned after angels is preposterous. They are patterned after mythological and fabled concepts of what sort of creatures serve the forces of Good. They are written so as to make their alignment absolutely clear. To think otherwise is to fly in the face of reason and against the entire gamut of creatures patterned in the AD&D game system. Much of the inspiration for it all is borrowed from folklore, myth, and legend. To claim that some demon names match those found in the Bible makes as much sense as asserting that devas are from Indian myth or that they are angels. Devils and demons were either taken from common lists of secular writings on the topic, or made up on the spot as the need arose. Some are obviously based on the gods of ancient cultures — Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, etc. Some are of medieval origin. Who borrows from whom becomes quite muddled in the span of history. Frankly, what difference does it make when we are talking about a time separation of centuries?"

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 24, 2025, 06:30:48 PMBecause there are hordes of nasty critters at work to promote Evil (and provide fodder for swordplay), it is necessary to have some reasonable' minions serving the opposing planes in the mythical multiverse of the game. To state that devas are patterned after angels is preposterous. They are patterned after mythological and fabled concepts of what sort of creatures serve the forces of Good. They are written so as to make their alignment absolutely clear.

OK, so the image from the original post isn't an angel - it's just a winged servant of the forces of Good, so there's no controversy here.

And the red figure with horns isn't a demon - it's clearly a Baatezu which isn't related to Judeo-Christian demons.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 24, 2025, 04:56:47 PMThe D&D entries aren't even real angels anyway. 

Biblically accurate angels are either completely human-looking -or- they're  eye-covered wheels of fire and forms so disturbing they have to shield their true form behind four of their six wings so you don't die from just looking at them while telling those they appear to essentially "don't panic!!!"

According to https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Angel:

QuoteA set of angels appeared in Dragon #35 (March 1980), including the angels of the ninth order, the archangels, the cherubim, the dominions, the powers, the principalities, the seraphim, the thrones, and the virtues.

I don't have the ability to track down Dragon #35 right now, but it'd be interesting to see what descriptions were used.

Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2025, 07:00:44 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 24, 2025, 06:30:48 PMBecause there are hordes of nasty critters at work to promote Evil (and provide fodder for swordplay), it is necessary to have some reasonable' minions serving the opposing planes in the mythical multiverse of the game. To state that devas are patterned after angels is preposterous. They are patterned after mythological and fabled concepts of what sort of creatures serve the forces of Good. They are written so as to make their alignment absolutely clear.

OK, so the image from the original post isn't an angel - it's just a winged servant of the forces of Good, so there's no controversy here.

And the red figure with horns isn't a demon - it's clearly a Baatezu which isn't related to Judeo-Christian demons.

yeah eye roll at Armchair General lol