Greetings!

Well, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything. Grills, cooking fires, serving counters, and so on. Also, the people that worked at these restaurants, cooking and serving food and drinks, did not live in these shops. The shops were specifically designed and built to be restaurants. There were no living quarters inside these Roman restaurants at all.

This is also like so many conceits with modern people. Modern society did not invent shopping malls, either. Ancient Rome did. Hadrian's Market was a seven story, gigantic, semi-open-air commercial comlex specifically designed for commerce, food, and shopping. It could easily accommodate thousands of customers all at the same time. Hadrian's Market provided many different kinds of shops, businesses, and services, providing goods from throughout the vast Roman Empire and beyond. So, yes, besides the shopping mall, the Romans also developed fast food restaurants.

Rome also had dedicated "Laundry Mats"--a shop that was dedicated to providing laundry services to people that lived in large apartment complexes. Yes, Rome also had large, multi-story apartment complexes for people to live in.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I remember the Middle Ages had places where you brought in your meat for them to cook. Beyond that, my brain ain't telling me anything.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on April 23, 2025, 02:38:36 PMMy campaign is in the 1980s, so yes.

Cool, mine too. My current PCs are 'Nam vets trying to become mercenaries but they run into a giant conspiracy. The aesthetic I picture is '80s B-movies like American Commandos and Operation 'Nam.

For rules we use a mix of GURPS, Delta Force and Phoenix Command.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on April 23, 2025, 02:38:36 PMThere's even a tie in with McDonalds' "When the U.S. Wins, You Win!" promotion and the McDonald's Menu song record.

Cool, was that an '84 Olympics reference?

I built a 1/72 scale 7-11 for one scenario with miniatures. There's a giant banner on it that says "The Dream Begins with Freedom". I lived in the US in the '80s as a kid and the patriotism was off the charts. It was a good time to be an American I feel.

Kids I knew used to go to school in full camo with their BB guns just in case the Russkies landed.

What's your game about?

The Song Dynasty had restaurants

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 23, 2025, 08:44:02 PMThe Song Dynasty had restaurants

Greetings!

Absolutely right, BedrockBrendan! The Song Dynasty had very diverse, sophisticated, and advanced restaurants, too. From what I have read, they also contributed to a very extensive and colourful nightlife! They also had cookbooks, museums, beauty salons, and so much more. Just really fantastic!

In "The Story of China" series, by Professor Michael Wood, he discusses much of this, ancient Chinese books, recipes, and nightlife. He interviews Chinese chefs that actually cooked him a authentic meal taken right from a Song Dynasty restaurant cookbook, first published in something like 1200 A.D.

It's all so interesting and awesome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Yes, European cities like London and Paris had "fast food" stalls and sellers who wandered around selling things like meat or fruit pies.  They even had cooks' guilds that would sort of cater big events like feasts or weddings.

Quote from: Spooky on April 23, 2025, 07:47:14 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on April 23, 2025, 02:38:36 PMThere's even a tie in with McDonalds' "When the U.S. Wins, You Win!" promotion and the McDonald's Menu song record.

Cool, was that an '84 Olympics reference?

Kids I knew used to go to school in full camo with their BB guns just in case the Russkies landed.

What's your game about?

Yes, that promotion was used in conjunction with the 1984 Olympics in real life.  Without the Russkies, America swept over 80 medals.

"In case the Russkies landed".... sounds like they watched the movie Red Dawn (the good, 1984 version) and wanted to be the Wolverines.

My game is called Radical High, and it's about teenage life in the real 1980s.  It can be played 3 way
  1) As high school drama 
  2) As teens in Cold War scenarios, like Wargames or Cloak & Dagger
  3) As kids riding around doing stranger things like encountering monsters and the paranormal
 
PDFs are at https://pdoxg.gumroad.com and physical editions are on eBay under keywords "Radical High RPG".  The phsycial editions themselves are tributes to DIY RPGs and microgames of the era.

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 09:50:56 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 23, 2025, 08:44:02 PMThe Song Dynasty had restaurants

In "The Story of China" series, by Professor Michael Wood, he discusses much of this, ancient Chinese books, recipes, and nightlife. He interviews Chinese chefs that actually cooked him a authentic meal taken right from a Song Dynasty restaurant cookbook, first published in something like 1200 A.D.

I haven't seen this one, is it worth the watch?

Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2025, 10:05:35 AMI've had lizard-on-a-stick available from street venders since I saw Conan and Subatai eat them. But I don't really bother with PCs and food so much, its the sort of thing I mention others as doing.

I also have most inns and taverns serve stew in a bread bowl which is portable and fast and could be considered fast food of sorts.

With the limitation that you can't walk out of the tavern/inn with their bowl. Though I suppose you could do it if you provide your own bowl.

Edit: sorry, missed the bit about it being a bread bowl.

Now that I think about it, a lot of reenactors wander around with a mug or tankard hanging off their belt. Was it common to carry around your own bowl?

Any idea which came first?

Quote from: I on April 24, 2025, 12:25:45 AM

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Yes, European cities like London and Paris had "fast food" stalls and sellers who wandered around selling things like meat or fruit pies.  They even had cooks' guilds that would sort of cater big events like feasts or weddings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWxyCBNrYq0

Thanks. This video is interesting - but it is talking exclusively about what it calls "cookshops" rather than "restaurants". I already agreed that there were both mobile and fixed stalls for cooking which sold food. The closer modern parallel is street vendors, I suggested, rather than walk-in fast food restaurants. At 10:41, the video says "instead, most shops were either small lean-to sheds or just a cart".

They briefly mention ale houses - but as I mentioned, those were someone's house that people drank and ate at.

Apparently Roman thermopolia had purpose-built sit-down dining areas which is distinct.

Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2025, 12:58:35 PM

Quote from: I on April 24, 2025, 12:25:45 AM

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Yes, European cities like London and Paris had "fast food" stalls and sellers who wandered around selling things like meat or fruit pies.  They even had cooks' guilds that would sort of cater big events like feasts or weddings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWxyCBNrYq0

Thanks. This video is interesting - but it is talking exclusively about what it calls "cookshops" rather than "restaurants". I already agreed that there were both mobile and fixed stalls for cooking which sold food. The closer modern parallel is street vendors, I suggested, rather than walk-in fast food restaurants. At 10:41, the video says "instead, most shops were either small lean-to sheds or just a cart".

They briefly mention ale houses - but as I mentioned, those were someone's house that people drank and ate at.

Apparently Roman thermopolia had purpose-built sit-down dining areas which is distinct.

Sorry, I didn't read your post closely enough before responding.  My mistake.  I've never heard of anything like an actual restaurant in medieval Europe.  SFAIK, an inn would have been the closest thing. Local people did apparently go to those for lunch sometimes.  There apparently was a lot of just standing around and eating from carts or stalls or doing "take-out" from these things rather than sidewalk cafes or whatever.  I'm guessing that's because these businesses were taxed on street frontage, and a lot of space for customers to sit would have resulted in a huge tax bill.  I can't think of any other reason they wouldn't have had Roman-style thermopolia.

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Greetings!

Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.

The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.

Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--

Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.

We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.

Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.

Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.

Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.

Just amazing stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 24, 2025, 07:44:58 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 09:50:56 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 23, 2025, 08:44:02 PMThe Song Dynasty had restaurants

In "The Story of China" series, by Professor Michael Wood, he discusses much of this, ancient Chinese books, recipes, and nightlife. He interviews Chinese chefs that actually cooked him a authentic meal taken right from a Song Dynasty restaurant cookbook, first published in something like 1200 A.D.

I haven't seen this one, is it worth the watch?

Greetings!

BedrockBrendan!!! Absolutely, YES! A fantastic, delightful series. "The Story of China" and "The Story of India" both are just fantastic! I really appreciate Professor Michael Wood, not just as a scholar, but also as a traveler. He skillfully mixes in sights, visits to locations, interviews with normal people, as well as interviews with other scholars, generals, and politicians. he also talks with chefs, seamstresses, street vendors, brick layers, smaller merchants, and mystics or folklore specialists. Blending all of that with expert quotations and references to historical scholars, archeaologists, eye-witnesses, and fantastic poets, as well!

Professor Michael Wood really puts in the effort to provide you with a broad exposure to the whole culture, in a wonderful way. Unforgettable, and absolutely some of my favorite history resources!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Interesting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL

But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!