Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 20, 2025, 08:36:02 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMThe recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.

Shark, 2.4 million dollars is nothing in the business world.  It's excellent for an indie RPG release, but it wouldn't even begin to make a ripple in the pond that is Hasbro, Mattel, et al.  That's not a knock on Shadowdark or its rules (my group is on our third Shadowdark campaign and I've given my opinions in other threads... it's ok).  But, the day that 2.4 million dollars is the largest RPG release by the leader in the industry, the TTRPG hobby will be effectively dead.  Shadowdark is a decent game, but it's not going to replace D&D.  It can feed on its corpse, but it'll never grow to be that size...

Correct. I pointed it out in the video: the creator of shadowdark doesn't have the infrastructure to make it into the market leader, unless she gets some serious investment going.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMAbsolutely off the charts, my friend. Very few games are in the same club as Kelsey and Shadowdark.
Pretty amazing when you think about her and her very small team doing this all from their proverbial garage. Just like how Gygax started, come to think of it.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMMore smaller games and designers should learn from Kelsey. Learn from Shadowdark.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMLearn and accept how they can do things better, improve, and be inspired from learning from Shadowdark which has shown what it is like to do it right.

Those are my takeaways from the campaigns and Shadowdark in general as someone who likes the idea of it and what it means for the indy rpg scene but who doesn't really have the intention of playing it myself (nor did I back either campaign).  There is alot I can learn from her work and I think it's a huge net positive for the OSR scene despite the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the One True OSR^TM crowd.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMGotta get some coffee!

Judging by the other parts of your posts, you may want to skip adding the piss and vinegar and just drink it black. 

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:35:02 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 20, 2025, 08:06:03 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMGreetings!

Let all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.

The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.

More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.

The haters can choke on it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL My sentiments exactly, Shark!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! The absolute hatred, jealousy, the seething envy I have seen from a good number of the haters is just disgusting, and pathetic.

Yeah, Shadowdark is inspired from many ideas from many different games. And then, DOES IT ALL BETTER!

All the fat, bitter crybabies shrieking about some fucking obscure game or another, why *Their Favourite Game* is somehow vastly superior, blah, blah, blah.

Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark.

I roar with laughter at all the bitter losers crying about some failed game, or just some game that is much less popular. Get over it, dork. Stop being jealous because your favoured game designer or game has been struggling for years and years--and in a much shorter time, Shadowdark has become far more popular, and also made Kelsey RICH. Whah! Whah! Whah!

Kelsey is an excellent game designer, and an excellent writer. There are lots of deeper mechanics under the hood of Shadowdark that really make the engine sing, and anyone with a brain and game experience can see it. Those that don't are usually just consumed with jealousy and bitterness--and also, typically, don't actually own the books and play the fucking game.

Shadowdark is simple, easy to play, easy to DM for, easy to prep for, easy to modify for, has beautiful, OLD SCHOOL ART--not gay fucking dwarves in a bakery, or rainbow haired dweebs in a magic coffee shop. Shadowdark has all the traditional awesome things that are standard in OSR games, with the best ideas from 5E thrown in, as well as other diverse ideas that are cool and popular. Very much rooted and grounded in OSR values and traditions. No stupid Woke politics of any kind.

And yet, a gaggle of these fucking jackasses want to shit on Kelsey as a designer, and on Shadowdark as a game. And also, on the fans and gamers that have supported Shadowdark. The hypocrisy is so high you would need an F-18 to fly over these people's mountain of hypocritical horseshit.

Time to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Is everything okay at home?

Quote from: RNGm on April 21, 2025, 08:36:33 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMAbsolutely off the charts, my friend. Very few games are in the same club as Kelsey and Shadowdark.
Pretty amazing when you think about her and her very small team doing this all from their proverbial garage. Just like how Gygax started, come to think of it.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMMore smaller games and designers should learn from Kelsey. Learn from Shadowdark.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMLearn and accept how they can do things better, improve, and be inspired from learning from Shadowdark which has shown what it is like to do it right.

Those are my takeaways from the campaigns and Shadowdark in general as someone who likes the idea of it and what it means for the indy rpg scene but who doesn't really have the intention of playing it myself (nor did I back either campaign).  There is alot I can learn from her work and I think it's a huge net positive for the OSR scene despite the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the One True OSR^TM crowd.

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:48:58 PMGotta get some coffee!

I think this is exactly right: the vast majority of people purchasing and supporting Shadowdark through KS like the "idea" of cool indy game that is an alternative to WOTC D&D, but very few will actually play the game.

It is getting some play at conventions right now, but I pointed out in another post, that at Garçon, 5e events outnumbered Shadowdark by like 10-1. Other games like Call of Cthulhu or the Free League stuff, had just as many events as Shadowdark.

Someone told me "Shadowdark is basically Mazes and Minotaurs written by a young woman, and hyped on social media"

Now if it actually explodes in popularity and goes beyond KS to become a legitimate game company that rivals and supplants WOTC, awesome --I would support that for sure. But I don't think it will. It is seriously overrated, and I'd be happy to discuss the mechanics, etc. It is a good, fun game. It is NOT some revolutionary RPG that makes all others look like shit, written by the high-priestess of game design, a literal Hypatia-level genius who we all have to look away from lest her radiant beauty and intellect blind us.

the endless ass-kissing by thirsty gamers and fake reviews by YT personalities who are getting paid to promote the game is nauseating.

If you consider this is the 2nd Arcane Library KS and the total of the twain is nearly 4 million dollars, I think WotC has taken note. That is 4 million clams that they are not getting. And as popularity grows we will see it more and more at conventions and in other places. If you look up 'Shadowdark' on KS you will see 155 projects. It is a cash cow right now for the little guys too.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 21, 2025, 10:04:03 AMNow if it actually explodes in popularity and goes beyond KS to become a legitimate game company that rivals and supplants WOTC, awesome --I would support that for sure. But I don't think it will. It is seriously overrated, and I'd be happy to discuss the mechanics, etc. It is a good, fun game.

I don't think that anyone with more than a couple brain cells consistently firing would expect it to rival let alone supplant WOTC but I do think it has a chance (if it isn't already) to be the reigning queen of the OSR scene (hey, that rhymes!) and to be an indy darling for years to come.  That's still a massive success for what is essentially a 2-3 person crew with some freelancers doing art commissions.

Quote from: bat on April 21, 2025, 10:23:19 AMIf you consider this is the 2nd Arcane Library KS and the total of the twain is nearly 4 million dollars, I think WotC has taken note. That is 4 million clams that they are not getting. And as popularity grows we will see it more and more at conventions and in other places. If you look up 'Shadowdark' on KS you will see 155 projects. It is a cash cow right now for the little guys too.

And that doesn't include the direct sales she's gotten inbetween.  I don't remember the exact number from the quote but in the recent Garycon "state of the shadowdark" panel she said that it sold significantly more at retail than with the initial crowdfunder.   I'd expect those numbers to go up even more following the even bigger followup success of the second campaign.

I'm glad someone somewhere, climbed up out of the muck and the mire.  There is so much competition out there, for the RPG dollars.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 20, 2025, 05:28:40 PMHow is Tales of the Valiant doing?

After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:

QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.

10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?

I printed out Black Flag, the free OGL version - it's very nicely done, the monsters are far better done than 5e & the magic item prices are great ...for 5e. It's basically standard 5e, so there's no real reason to convert. Just use the bits you want in your 5e game.

My opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:11:17 AMI don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.

Despite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well.  Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:



Can they maintain it?  No idea.  I certainly believe it's nowhere as ubiquitous as PF1 had been at its height; 5e took a lot of the market share back from them.  I'd expect the numbers to be at least reversed from back when PF1 was outselling 4e, so this represents a big drop from their height.

Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMMy opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.

No fair throwing that out without giving some details.  What are the cool things that are not immediately obvious?

Quote from: Mishihari on April 21, 2025, 02:16:52 PM

Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PMMy opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.

No fair throwing that out without giving some details.  What are the cool things that are not immediately obvious?

Well some things I initially missed: there is no advancement table. There are no spell slots - you roll to cast, and can keep casting as long as you succeed - Luck Points allow rerolls so this isn't too harsh. There are no Saving Throws; generally it's character Level that determines whether a spell is effective. eg Power Word Kill auto-slays level 9 & below - in a 10 level game. There is no attack table; advancement in combat ability depends largely on the vagaries of the level-up table. There is no resurrection, but death is not instant, it's quite a drawn out process, but without the ease of saving someone in 5e etc, it actually feels MORE "Fantasy Vietnam" when the PCs are desperately trying to hit the 15 to stabilise their fallen buddy before he bleeds out. Self-stabilising requires a nat 20, which is just cruel but adds to the feeling.

Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2025, 02:04:58 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on April 20, 2025, 05:28:40 PMHow is Tales of the Valiant doing?

After the OGL debacle, Kolbold Press launched a KS for TotV. It was meant to be a non-OGL 5E, with some of their own changes:

QuoteThe big-picture goals for Tales of the Valiant are:
1) Make the rules easier to read, understand, and use.
2) Reduce GM burden with encounter-building tools, exploration encounter tools, social encounter tools, and more.
3) Rebalance some existing elements such as feats (now known as talents) and subclasses.
4) Provide opportunities for PCs to make meaningful choices throughout every level of play.
5) Make spellcasting cooler.
6) Keep combat interesting for martial characters.

10,057 backers pledged $1,151,914. Delivered on April 2024, so it's been about a year. Did Shadowdark and/or 5.5E steal the thunder?

I printed out Black Flag, the free OGL version - it's very nicely done, the monsters are far better done than 5e & the magic item prices are great ...for 5e. It's basically standard 5e, so there's no real reason to convert. Just use the bits you want in your 5e game.

My opinion of Shadowdark is pretty close to SHARK's - those who dismiss it probably haven't played it IMO. There is a ton of cool stuff that's not obvious on a quick read-through. And it's very cleverly placed to attract both grognards and people who want 5e-lite.

I've effectively played it because I've played 5e and I've played Dungeon Crawl Classics. I'm sure people are having a good time with it because those games are pretty fun.

Quote from: Valatar on April 21, 2025, 02:12:12 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:11:17 AMI don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.

Despite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well.  Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:



Can they maintain it?  No idea.  I certainly believe it's nowhere as ubiquitous as PF1 had been at its height; 5e took a lot of the market share back from them.  I'd expect the numbers to be at least reversed from back when PF1 was outselling 4e, so this represents a big drop from their height.

Yeah. I think sales over several years are important, and I'm not sure how well Kickstarter represents the enduring market for a given game. From the last few years, here are the TTRPG Kickstarter or Backerkit campaigns for standalone games (non-5E) that got two million or more:

(2024) $14.6M : Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG
(2021) $9.5M : Avatar Legends: The Roleplaying Game
(2023) $4.6M : MCDM RPG: Draw Steel
(2019) $3.4M : Zombicide 2nd edition
(2024) $2.9M : Terry Pratchett's Discworld RPG
(2024) $2.2M : DC20
(2022) $2.1M : Old Gods of Appalachia Roleplaying Game
(2023) $2.0M : The Magnus Archives Roleplaying Game
(2021) $2.0M : THE ONE RING RPG, 2nd edition

The big question is how well these translate into continuing play and sales.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 20, 2025, 03:32:50 PMtheir best bet is to simply license more successful video games from the IP if they want to make real money. the market cap on video games is at this point larger than the film industry.

I agree with all of your post, but this part, while 1000% true, is maybe not super important to the central point of, "what's going down with tabletop games".  It's still a good insight about what makes D&D really valuable, and it's that it's a small contender in the same bracket as Wolverine, Mickey Mouse, and Luke Skywalker; it has a minor but apparently permanent place in culture and isn't just a set of roleplaying game rules. 

Quote from: Valatar on April 20, 2025, 05:27:40 PMEconomically Pathfinder is going to "take over" in the sense of being the largest remaining market share still putting out new content, despite Pathfinder 2 being complete shit as a game. 

I totally disagree, Valatar.  D&D 5.5 won't fail so hard it falls behind Pathfinder 2e.  I think 5.5 D&D will have more tables than 5.0 D&D, but even if it doesn't, there's no way 5.0 D&D is gonna fall behind Pathfinder 2, and all supplements coming out now tend to advertise themselves as compatible with both rulesets (in reality they are either built for one or the other, but if you're running a table you'll eventually figure out that there's a substantial difference in monster difficulty by CR and adjust). 

But Pathfinder 2 is a hot mess in terms of its market penetration.  It's well put together, but its revised edition has changed the packaging on literally everything (plus made a bunch of substantial changes), making it essentially a 2.5 for them, and this is now a small community split into two games with some people getting mad if you use the "wrong" one.  It has never had the prominence of Pathfinder 1e, which was compatible out of the box with a decade of WotC and 3pp content, and which immediately spread itself to well defined concepts for classes.  By contrast Pathfinder 2e is this perfectly balanced pile of mechanics and synergies and only appeals to gamers who are fans of such tactical shenanigans.

I just feel it is limited in its appeal as a straight derivation of its design and content. 

Quote from: Valatar on April 21, 2025, 02:12:12 PMDespite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well.  Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:

If you were going to play Pathfinder 2e, I think the odds that you are using Foundry are really high.  By contrast, roll20 used to publish stats like: 
https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-report-q3-2021/ 

Which shows the end of 2021 being 50% 5e and 1.4% PF2e.  Now I'm sure those stats are different today, but I think Foundry has better integration for PF2e tables.  I think those percentages are a little cooked, is my point. 

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 06:50:35 PMLet all the haters cry. SHADOWDARK is getting bigger and bigger. SHADOWDARK is going to continue going from success to success. SGADOWDARK is more and more popular, EVERY DAY.

The recent Shadowdark KS broke 2.4 MILLION DOLLARS. Easy.

More third-party creators are creating stuff for Shadowdark. More interviews, more coverage, more people playing and DMing Shadowdark than ever before.

The haters can choke on it.

I wonder if I qualify as a Shadowdark hater.  Something about it has always put me off, and the game isn't at all what I want.  But I'm barely an OSR guy by comparison to the rest of this forum; I buy OSR products and shove OSR elements into my otherwise-modern games, which makes me I guess an OSR consumer, so like, whatever, it's adjacent?  I mentioned stars and worlds without number to my players but they didn't seem responsive so I moved past for now, but I still have a game world that I may run for them with those rulesets in the future. 
Unlike ACKS, Sine Nomine products, and Hyperborea though, there's absolutely nothing I see in Shadowdark that I want to run (or play).

Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2025, 09:35:02 PM*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! The absolute hatred, jealousy, the seething envy I have seen from a good number of the haters is just disgusting, and pathetic.

Is this all on twitter?  I don't see redditors shitting on it, and I don't see people here shitting on it.  Unless by "seething envy" you mean something pretty minor and are exaggerating maybe?

QuoteYeah, Shadowdark is inspired from many ideas from many different games. And then, DOES IT ALL BETTER!

See to me this seems like it may be talking at the fact that Shadowdark hypers often don't know about the games that inspired Shadowdark, and go and give incorrect credit.  It would be like a Model-T driver loving his brand new card and citing as a reason that Ford invented cars.  He's not wrong to be hyped, but his reason is going to grate on anyone who hears it.  It's not seething or whatever to point that out. 

QuoteThey choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark.

No one I know in meatspace has ever heard of it.  If I wanted them to be interested, I'd have to pitch it the same way it's been pitched; it has a lot of elements and rules from 5e, while being OSR.  Basing enough of the rules on 5e instead of something much older was an extraordinarily smart decision, because the playerbase that are willing to try the product is much larger as a direct result of that call.

But here's my bigger problem; your bellowing all generally praises the fact that the game is good and that it is popular.  Being popular doesn't mean it's better than other games; if that were the case, then someone should be "roaring with laughter at all the bitter losers crying about some failed game" but all because they are playing D&D 5e and are talking about, not just Shadowdark, but the entire OSR.  Popular doesn't mean "best".  Sure, a popular thing isn't going to be bad, but popularity comes from things like "advertising" and "networking" as well as the intrinsic quality of the thing- in a marketing fight between a few good things and a few great things, the most popular will often be whichever one has the best product placement or advertising, not necessarily the best one intrinsically.  Two amazing Shadowdark kickstarters are not full of players who played every OSR thing on the market and decided hers was best; it's full of 5e players who were exposed to Shadowdark (which was namedropped by several content creators who never mentioned OSR before) and liked it.  Those people might love other OSR products more, should they ever check them out.

QuoteKelsey is an excellent game designer, and an excellent writer.

And so is Macris, but if I go on reddit and say that I'll be banned- it's in their fucking rules.

Anybody shits on Kelsey at their peril, sure.  But who is even doing that?  Like I know I don't get around to all the tweetfaces and booktagrams but are there even fucking haters?

QuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!

This is you before coffee?  Holy moly!

You also compared it to Pathfinder 2e.  That made me think, I'd actually like to know what the story is there, between those two.  You seem pretty confident that it's bigger than PF2E.  I suspect it's the other way around, but I wouldn't bet on PF2e staying above it for all that much longer.  Pathfinder has a loyal set of players but I think they've recruited all that they can.  Every player I know has heard of or played Pathfinder (probably not 2e, but in general), and none of them are playing or running it right now.  To me that means that something about it was hard for them to understand or get into and then they just walked away because it doesn't have any network effect comparatively.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:10:18 AMNah. As you can see, she hasn't yet learned to be a real camera hog. She just does walk-throughs for now.

She's still so small and she's already a star!