5e gamers & influencers are still praising Shadowdark as a singular "work of genius" because they've never heard of the OSR, where Shadowdark got all its ideas. Here I show how SD is entirely influenced by the OSR and just some of the incredible and genius games you can find there.

Putting together a bunch of disparate great ideas made a pretty great game IMO. Shadowdark does lack some of the old higher tier stuff I like eg support for territory development.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 15, 2025, 08:30:36 PM5e gamers & influencers are still praising Shadowdark as a singular "work of genius" because they've never heard of the OSR, where Shadowdark got all its ideas. Here I show how SD is entirely influenced by the OSR and just some of the incredible and genius games you can find there.

FWIW, OSR still is obscure even to veteran gamers (but not veteran *enough*).   I've been gaming since the early 90s so I'm certainly no spring chicken (as my back pain, receeding greying hair, and dad bod would confirm IRL) and I had no real idea what the OSR was until the OGL debacle.   Ironically, it was my stumbling on Kelsey's videos specifically about the OGL changes that introduced me to it.  Prior to that, I just assumed it was people playing OGL reprinted versions of older D&D (with 2e being my frame of reference as I had no idea that B/X existed).   My very limited experience with 2e (basically two very short clueless games with my equally clueless DM friend one on one) turned me off to the idea as 3e was "my" edition/introduction (though I don't want to return to it now).  While I agree that it's silly for someone to assume that the cake they like is the first ever combination flour, water, eggs, and icing, it's equally silly for others to discount how good that particular combination tastes as well as happens frequently here with folks deeply involved in the OSR scene.  Shadowdark isn't for me personally (and I haven't backed either campaign) but I appreciate it and Kelsey for introducing me to the OSR style of play and like some elements common across games in this subniche.

Quote from: RNGm on April 16, 2025, 06:13:31 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 15, 2025, 08:30:36 PM5e gamers & influencers are still praising Shadowdark as a singular "work of genius" because they've never heard of the OSR, where Shadowdark got all its ideas. Here I show how SD is entirely influenced by the OSR and just some of the incredible and genius games you can find there.

FWIW, OSR still is obscure even to veteran gamers (but not veteran *enough*).   I've been gaming since the early 90s so I'm certainly no spring chicken (as my back pain, receeding greying hair, and dad bod would confirm IRL) and I had no real idea what the OSR was until the OGL debacle.   Ironically, it was my stumbling on Kelsey's videos specifically about the OGL changes that introduced me to it.  Prior to that, I just assumed it was people playing OGL reprinted versions of older D&D (with 2e being my frame of reference as I had no idea that B/X existed).   My very limited experience with 2e (basically two very short clueless games with my equally clueless DM friend one on one) turned me off to the idea as 3e was "my" edition/introduction (though I don't want to return to it now).  While I agree that it's silly for someone to assume that the cake they like is the first ever combination flour, water, eggs, and icing, it's equally silly for others to discount how good that particular combination tastes as well as happens frequently here with folks deeply involved in the OSR scene.  Shadowdark isn't for me personally (and I haven't backed either campaign) but I appreciate it and Kelsey for introducing me to the OSR style of play and like some elements common across games in this subniche.

It's interesting that you had been gaming since the 1990's, and you were aware of 2nd Edition AD&D; but you had no awareness of BX D&D. 

I started playing 1st Edition AD&D in the mid 1990's, with a group who didn't realize that 2nd Edition even existed.  They were evidently aware of BX D&D, because they made a point of telling me they were playing "Advanced" D&D. They emphasized the word "Advanced".

I have never held an actual TSR era Basic, BX, or BECMI product in my hand.  I only know of them, through YouTube, the Internet, and OSR Clones.

And when people stumble upon the OSR, they also discover Light RPG"s.  Talk about a revelation.

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 16, 2025, 01:22:49 PMIt's interesting that you had been gaming since the 1990's, and you were aware of 2nd Edition AD&D; but you had no awareness of BX D&D. 

I actually bought some 2e books for the fluff starting around 1992 or 1993 as I was also reading the branded novels so 2e was the edition you saw at stores most typically.  My two "sessions" of 2e lasted about 15 minutes each as I kept getting killed in one hit by an orc both time who won initiative (the second time being when he captured me as prisoner hand wave style in the first session)... and I never looked back other than to read my friend's Council of Wyrms boxed set books. 

I assumed there was an older 1st edition from the obvious numbering and guessed there was some sort of older non-advanced version but never looked any further into it.   BECMI was an acronym that I only learned about in 2023!

OSE was THE fair haired darling of the OSR, prior to Shadowdark.

Quote from: S'mon on April 16, 2025, 02:59:22 AMPutting together a bunch of disparate great ideas made a pretty great game IMO. Shadowdark does lack some of the old higher tier stuff I like eg support for territory development.

Putting together a bunch of stuff from different influences is essentially a normal OSR process. No one is saying that's a bad thing.

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 16, 2025, 05:39:14 PMOSE was THE fair haired darling of the OSR, prior to Shadowdark.

True, which also drove me nuts because there were literally thousands of incredibly 2nd and 3rd wave books out there, and people instead just thought of the OSR as "B/X with cool art and easier to read".

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 17, 2025, 08:14:38 PMTrue, which also drove me nuts because there were literally thousands of incredibly 2nd and 3rd wave books out there, and people instead just thought of the OSR as "B/X with cool art and easier to read".

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug...also you have to admit if you going to start with a solid base, B/X is about as good as it gets for OSR games.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 17, 2025, 08:14:38 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 16, 2025, 05:39:14 PMOSE was THE fair haired darling of the OSR, prior to Shadowdark.

True, which also drove me nuts because there were literally thousands of incredibly 2nd and 3rd wave books out there, and people instead just thought of the OSR as "B/X with cool art and easier to read".

Perhaps if something like this, could get in front of those who are only ankle deep into the OSR waters:

If you like OSE now, but would like to try something like OSE, with "X" and "X" added; you should try "this other cool rpg".  Or perhaps "this other cool rpg".

If you like Shadowdark now, but would like to try something like Shadowdark, with "X" and "X" instead; you should try "this other cool rpg".  Or perhaps "this other cool rpg".

If you like OSE or Shadowdark now, but would like to try something even more simple; here's a long list of other cool and simple rpg's.
-----------------------

Approaching the OSR can be daunting, if a person doesn't grasp what is possible.  Everything, is possible.  Everything!!!

I found this by accident on drivethrurpg.net. Apparently it came out years before Shadowdark and did practically the same thing: minimilist 5E rules with B/X influence.

Into the Unknown

I always describe Shadowdark as a good, but not great, OSR game.

It does work fine as an RPG, but I'm not sold that it's better than other games that are cheaper or free.  Olde Swords Reign, or Bugbears & Borderlands are two games I think deserve more love, and are free PDF's.

I did get a copy of Shadowdark in PDF form, but passed on a hardcopy book opportunity this past week in fact.  I like Shadowdark, but I don't love it, and don't need to spend money on a paper book.

Quote from: blackstone on April 18, 2025, 02:40:05 PMI found this by accident on drivethrurpg.net. Apparently it came out years before Shadowdark and did practically the same thing: minimilist 5E rules with B/X influence.

Into the Unknown

I always really liked this and I'm still waiting for the guy to put out the companion-level rules...

Technically it is trying to do something different from Shadowdark though, it's more on the 5e side in terms of class design and does race as class like B/X.

Still you're right, I've pointed this out many times, but you can fumble through drivethrurpg and find plenty of games that had similar ideas. The concept of using 5e Advantage/Disadvantage is already in a lot of OSR games.

If you bring this up you'll get a motte and bailey argument about the layout.

i always describe shadowdark as the product billy mays should have shilled instead of oxyclean. it has fewer rules with less completeness than your average ad&d houserule document, but damn does it look sexy on the coffee table.