I just watched a RPG maker in the medium range of RPG's living of kickstarters just defend China's use of slaves publicly on a live stream and state well the US uses slaves and I know my guys factories they don't use slaves.

I mean the smart play, don't mention China at all.  If this was 1936 and you were defending that new fangled Nazi party having some good ideas because you buy German bearings, you'd be labeled the American Bund once the war kicked off.  And China is building legitimate landing capacity now, including the ability to build a pier that goes outs out 1 1/2 miles into the ocean.  Just saying once the West goes to war, all these idiots with sound bites defending China are going to be destroyed on social media.

So why in todays market use China let alone defend them publicly using slaves "because everyone uses slaves"?  Just go digital with VTT integration.  Books so far are exempt from the tariffs.  I use VTT for online and in person games (digital table top and digital maps once you go that route, you'll never go back to marker pen and grid) so to me, all these kickstarters selling physically makes no sense.  Just integrate with VTT for play OR deliver the minimum paper product you need and provide .STL files to print out the play pieces and partner with the many 3D printer companies to print out the play pieces the players want printed and get an affiliate kick back.

So again, who in their wrong mind as a RPG maker in the West would literally defend China's use of slaves, because they know no slaves in their supply chain.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 11, 2025, 05:55:05 PMSo again, who in their wrong mind as a RPG maker in the West would literally defend China's use of slaves, because they know no slaves in their supply chain.

They got used to it. They don't have to actually see the horrible conditions they support. They deny its "That bad". They're forced to do it to stay competitive. Etc. The rationalization hamster never seems to get tired.

I mean the obvious answer, that you are looking for, is that they don't actually care about anything except their bottom line.  And if that was there position, I mean, I guess so be it- but they will spend plenty of time signalling that this isn't actually their real position, man, and attacking capitalism and whatever.

I'm not a big Trump fan or anything but this appears to be a good faith attempt to actually address a real problem.  Regardless of whether or not it is the smartest method, it's the first approach beyond "pretend it isn't real and gaslight anyone trying to help America", which is the exclusive approach we've seen for over two decades, that I can recall.  Beyond lip service when running for office, of course.

So it's sorta funny to see the predictable folks pretend that OH MY GOD BECKY YOU CAN'T MAKE CHINA STOP USING SLAVES THAT IS IMPERIALISM.

Whatever lol

To me it was the bullshit excuse, we use people who are slaves to pick our fruit.  Bastard, they entered the nation illegally, paying a fee to come here to do said labor, so no they damn well aren't slaves, they did this voluntarily.  Meanwhile the Chicoms pulled a St Petersburg, went into the peoples home, kidnapped them, put them in a camp and told them to literally process (pick) cotton.  And these smarmy RPG makers as advocating for China?

All I can say is, and its fucked up to say, but America needs another war, get patriotism going again and burn these China slave loving weasels down to the ground economically and credential wise.  Slavery, Rape and Murder isn't a negotiable value in the West and as progressive as these fucktard game developers are, you'd think they'd know that.

We can do all our games digitally or print our own at this point.  Yup, machines made in China, the 3D printers can be made in the States as well.  I'm 100% digital now and I have a complete room in my house a wall that is a display case of minis, another wall of paints and two desks dedicated to mini painting.  I'm 100% VTT because I can get my stuff out faster now and have more time for myself now.

Leftists defend anything that's Communist to the hilt. They always defended the Soviet Union, and I'm convinced that they now despise Russia largely because it turned its back on Communism.  They consider Russians to be "traitors" to the Left.  But China at least still pays lip service to Communism and so is the Western Leftist's great hope for the world. Liberals literally hate Russia, Hungary, and half of the U.S. worse than they hate China.  If they dislike China at all, it's in regard to that government's treatment of Muslims, another liberal purse puppy who vie with non-whites in the libtards' Oppression Olympics-view of the world.  And even that they rationalize or simply ignore.

"Money talks and bullshit walks." - my grandfather.

I look at this tariff situation as an opportunity to suffer for a good cause.  Yeah I'll pay a little bit more for stuff, but I am fighting against slavery and helping my neighbor by keeping him or her employed.

It is now a moral crusade.  Deus Vult!

Answer: Because their morality is purely performative.

Both the Left and Corporate America agree on one thing: There is only one God, and it's name is Money.

I would actually say that China is no longer Communist, but Nazi. After all, it's an ethnic state maintained with propaganda, slavery, ethnic and religious repression, organ harvesting, and most recently, military expansion. I don't mean to defend Communism, but to point out that the only thing restricting a despot's policy decisions is the propaganda arm's ability to keep up. "We have always been at war with Eastasia."

But there is no profit in taking a stand against China. Quite the contrary, China's use of slave labor and currency manipulation means it effectively bribes people to look the other way, and there is certainly an opportunity cost to losing access to China.

As to Tariffs: I am not actually worried about price increases. The US internally has all the energy, food, and shelter that it needs in the short run. The price increases will be for imported foods and manufactured goods. These are things you can and will choose to live without. More to the point, consumers don't have the savings to pay more, and will simply not bear price increases. Importers will either increase their prices and watch as their demand goes to zero...and go bankrupt. Or they can hold prices steady and take losses on the face. And probably still go bankrupt.

That will do some truly nasty things to the global financial system.

But at the same time, I don't see a ton of choice. China's end-game with attracting all this manufacturing was to bankrupt almost all manufacturing outside of China, and then once their monopoly was established they could ratchet up the price. This would do the exact same thing as tariffs. The only difference would be that China would control the timing rather than the US, so they would probably time the price increase to cause harm (so you can't rebuild effectively and they maintain the monopoly.)

So we were in for this pain one way or the other. We might as well get it over with.

Quote from: RNGm on April 11, 2025, 07:14:23 PMAnswer: Because their morality is purely performative.

^^This^^

While they proclaim that they are "good guys", it really is about the profit margin of their business. After all, they don't have to actually see the sweatshops and the slave labor or the oppressive social credit system the workers are operating in.

It's not just these jerkoffs, the entirety of the US has grown addicted to slave labor products, everything $9.99 or less delivered overnight by Amazon!  And it's hardly just China, there're the basically-slaves working on US soil for a fraction of minimum wage, the farmers in other countries making two bucks a day for their cocoa and coffee, the shady factories in non-Chinese Asian countries that don't get the same attention, etc, etc.  I've been trying to only buy products made in the US or with some vague guarantee of having been paying people fairly for their materials and labor, and it is exceedingly difficult to pull off.  I desperately want to see the entire production chains of our day to day items returned to the US to mend that issue, to say nothing of keeping our country financially independent.

I ran a (very short) poll over on Reddit asking if it matters to 'you' if a Kickstarter manufactures in China. You can see the results here.

I think that unfortunately, there are still a lot of people that are willing to hold their noses and look away if they get their fun stuff. I don't know how the self proclaimed socially and environmentally conscious can look at themselves in a mirror.

I don't want to see RPG companies fail but, the street price of most RPGs is really high now. How many people bought the 2014 PHB for under $30 on Amazon, compared to the $50 it costs now, or for that matter, the very high cost of a PDF (most of which are horrible to read on a tablet) which has almost no channel costs?

If there's something you need and the only supplier is from China, yeah, I understand. But I think there are cost efficiencies that can be realized in the USA, but publishers just don't want to make an effort.

If Trump is against slavery, they are for it.

  China has made it well beyond clear they have a goal of global domination and are EXTREMELY aggressive about stealing from the USA and screwing the USA at every turn.  I still never understand why the USA allows even one CCP member into this country, much less millions to work and study here. 

  As for saying the USA uses slaves as well...that is complete BS if we are going to compare the two places directly, China still uses the third world standard to see how many people live in poverty.  Shanghai has a lower GDP than the State of Mississippi.   Lots of what China puts an appearance on about is fake and nefarious.  We need to cut ourselves off from their CCP members and their cheap goods.  Period.

  If every RPG company goes under for the USA to be independent of Chinese goods...so be it. That will not happen though. 

Speaking personally—when I set up and planned the Colonial Gothic Kickstarter, I chose to print in China. Yes, I was aware of the situation. And yes, I felt dirty making that decision. But in the end, it came down to one thing: cost.

So, I sold a piece of my soul for a cheaper print bill.

In retrospect, I should have printed elsewhere. Hell, I should've printed in the United States. But at the time, when you're unsure whether printing will eat into the budget you've set aside for every part of a project, you compromise. You give up something. You gamble.

When it came to tariffs, I always planned for them. I wanted to be prepared, so I built a cushion into the budget in case things got out of hand. Books typically fall under the following Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTSUS) subheadings:

• 4901.10.0000 – Single-sheet printed matter
• 4901.99.0010 – Textbooks
• 4901.99.0093 – Other printed books, including brochures and similar materials

Most hardcover books—whether for general reading, education, or gaming (like roleplaying books)—are classified under 4901.99.0093. I could go deeper into this, and explain how Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974 gives the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) authority to act on unfair trade practices. But I won't.

With all that in mind, I went ahead and printed in China. From a business perspective, it made sense. From a stress perspective? It spiked everything.

What surprises me is how few people seemed to actually look into tariffs or plan ahead. I did. I wanted to stay nimble, ready to pivot to another country if the U.S. and China entered a full-blown trade war. Still, even then, I took a gamble—because the price per unit I was getting in China fit the budget.

And I've been lucky—so far.

Or have I?

Printed books under HTSUS 4901.99.0093 are currently excluded from Section 301 tariffs, with that exemption extended through May 31, 2025. The other codes—4901.10.0000 and 4901.99.0010—haven't been listed in any of the tariff rounds (Lists 1 through 4A), so they're also clear—for now.

But May 31, 2025, is a ticking time bomb.

Given how things are trending, I have no faith that the exemption will be extended again. And I honestly wonder how many of my fellow publishers are even thinking about this.

As for me? I'm still stressed. Why? Because the books are printed and about to be shipped. According to my printer, it takes 5 to 7 weeks for them to arrive. That puts me uncomfortably close to the May 31 tariff exemption deadline.

Next Kickstarter? I'm printing in the U.S. It's the safer bet—even if the cost of paper and potential tariffs are higher on paper. At least I'll sleep better.