"Christianity, the revolution, the abolition of slavery, equal rights, philanthropy, love of peace, justice, truth: all these big words have value only in a fight, as flags: not as realities but as showy words for something quite different (indeed, opposite!)"
- Nietzsche

How do you or how would you incorporate Nietzsche's slave-master morality split and distinction in your campaign worlds? Nietzsche's slave-master morality framework outlines two opposing ethical systems rooted in social power dynamics. In master morality, the strong and noble define "good" as strength, pride, and power, while labeling weakness and mediocrity as "bad." Conversely, slave morality, emerging from the oppressed, equates "good" with humility, kindness, and sympathy, and brands oppression or the oppressors as "evil." This moral inversion stems from the resentment of the subjugated, who react to the masters' values by flipping them to favor the weak. Historically, Nietzsche viewed the rise of slave morality, epitomized by Christianity, as a cultural shift that overtook master morality, critiquing it for its life-denying resentment while noting master morality's life-affirming creativity.

I wouldn't implement it at all. I don't think it's helpful or true (particularly in regard to Christianity), and it's supposed to be descriptive of what already happened in real life, not a prescriptive method of writing fiction. You could do something like the Conan the Barbarian movie I guess, but that would just be running a normal swords and sorcery game.

Makes good rhetoric for fiends and evil cultists, or for Dark Siders in Star Wars games.

Nietzsche was both very intelligent and a complete sociopath, so you're going to wind up with it becoming a hot mess.

The one time I can think of Master/ Slave morality working is Star Wars, and even then I would argue that it wasn't really Lucas's intent to write this into the work. Rather, certain works in the EU introduced it, and as it matched well with official Star Wars to that point, the fanbase adopted it as a way of thinking about Jedi vs Sith. Yes, this did factor into the downfall of the Sequel Trilogy, although it wasn't exactly a primary cause the way bad management was.

The problem with master vs slave morality is that master morality is self-destructive. The GM has to manually override the actual logic of the situation to set up the setting or to keep certain forces in place, so you kind of wind up with the clockmaker GM and the worldbuilder GM being at odds. It isn't like this is impossible, but I imagine that most groups will reinterpret it into tribalism to make it easier to play.

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 03:42:02 PM"Christianity, the revolution, the abolition of slavery, equal rights, philanthropy, love of peace, justice, truth: all these big words have value only in a fight, as flags: not as realities but as showy words for something quite different (indeed, opposite!)"
- Nietzsche

How do you or how would you incorporate Nietzsche's slave-master morality split and distinction in your campaign worlds? Nietzsche's slave-master morality framework outlines two opposing ethical systems rooted in social power dynamics. In master morality, the strong and noble define "good" as strength, pride, and power, while labeling weakness and mediocrity as "bad." Conversely, slave morality, emerging from the oppressed, equates "good" with humility, kindness, and sympathy, and brands oppression or the oppressors as "evil." This moral inversion stems from the resentment of the subjugated, who react to the masters' values by flipping them to favor the weak. Historically, Nietzsche viewed the rise of slave morality, epitomized by Christianity, as a cultural shift that overtook master morality, critiquing it for its life-denying resentment while noting master morality's life-affirming creativity.

I'd never thought of incorporating Nietzsche in any of my games because I find the idea stupid.

EDIT: Seriously, where is the fun in using Nietzsche in a role-playing game?

Nietzsche has the same problem with Christainty (and thus most western values) as the Romans had about it. "That it was a religion for woman and slaves"

As C.S Lewis might put it, Nietzsche was in some sense trying to  raise from its grave (its shallow and unquiet grave...) the pre-Christian ferocity of Achilles by a "modern invocation".

He like many others mistook "the meek shall inherit the earth" as we English speaking folk think of it, weak, cowardly. the literal translation there would be "πραεῖς" (praus). which is closer to a stoic idea of focused power, quiet and strong and assertive, not someone who is needlessly aggressive. 

Nietzsche is correct about one thing, one very big primary thing, Power does not corrupt, power attracts the corruptible. power amplifies what was already there. men who don't want power know well enough what may be amplified within themselves.

All RPGs pretty much enforce working together in a group, seeing that you're a real group of people looking to go on an adventure. Master Morality certainly can consist of utilizing social connections, but it seems like a heavy limitation if you're really trying to go full Nietzsche.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 06, 2025, 06:59:51 PMmen who don't want power know well enough what may be amplified within themselves

And the mess it can bring from jealous people around you. One thing people don't realize is that paranoia from excessive dopamine (drugs, mental illness, suddenly gaining social standing, etc.) is a biological remnant of the body recognizing that if you're feeling *that* good, it might attract the wrong people and to be aware of betrayal. It just looks crazy when people don't know that you're feeling that good, but the body has its reasons even for seemingly silly reactions to things.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 06, 2025, 06:20:35 PM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 03:42:02 PM"Christianity, the revolution, the abolition of slavery, equal rights, philanthropy, love of peace, justice, truth: all these big words have value only in a fight, as flags: not as realities but as showy words for something quite different (indeed, opposite!)"
- Nietzsche

How do you or how would you incorporate Nietzsche's slave-master morality split and distinction in your campaign worlds? Nietzsche's slave-master morality framework outlines two opposing ethical systems rooted in social power dynamics. In master morality, the strong and noble define "good" as strength, pride, and power, while labeling weakness and mediocrity as "bad." Conversely, slave morality, emerging from the oppressed, equates "good" with humility, kindness, and sympathy, and brands oppression or the oppressors as "evil." This moral inversion stems from the resentment of the subjugated, who react to the masters' values by flipping them to favor the weak. Historically, Nietzsche viewed the rise of slave morality, epitomized by Christianity, as a cultural shift that overtook master morality, critiquing it for its life-denying resentment while noting master morality's life-affirming creativity.

I'd never thought of incorporating Nietzsche in any of my games because I find the idea stupid.

EDIT: Seriously, where is the fun in using Nietzsche in a role-playing game?

You want to make a fantasy world where believable player characters and NPCS would disrespect Christianity and Judaism without being cartoonishly evil.

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 07:46:02 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 06, 2025, 06:20:35 PM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 03:42:02 PM"Christianity, the revolution, the abolition of slavery, equal rights, philanthropy, love of peace, justice, truth: all these big words have value only in a fight, as flags: not as realities but as showy words for something quite different (indeed, opposite!)"
- Nietzsche

How do you or how would you incorporate Nietzsche's slave-master morality split and distinction in your campaign worlds? Nietzsche's slave-master morality framework outlines two opposing ethical systems rooted in social power dynamics. In master morality, the strong and noble define "good" as strength, pride, and power, while labeling weakness and mediocrity as "bad." Conversely, slave morality, emerging from the oppressed, equates "good" with humility, kindness, and sympathy, and brands oppression or the oppressors as "evil." This moral inversion stems from the resentment of the subjugated, who react to the masters' values by flipping them to favor the weak. Historically, Nietzsche viewed the rise of slave morality, epitomized by Christianity, as a cultural shift that overtook master morality, critiquing it for its life-denying resentment while noting master morality's life-affirming creativity.

I'd never thought of incorporating Nietzsche in any of my games because I find the idea stupid.

EDIT: Seriously, where is the fun in using Nietzsche in a role-playing game?

You want to make a fantasy world where believable player characters and NPCS would disrespect Christianity and Judaism without being cartoonishly evil.

Why would I want to make a fantasy world that deliberately disrespected Judaism and Christianity? What's the point?

"The DM is dead." - Nietzsche, probably

Nietzsche RPGs are a real niche.

I just give my masters a +2 and the slaves a -1.

Quote from: Brad on April 06, 2025, 08:28:58 PM"The DM is dead." - Nietzsche, probably

WE MUST COME UP WITH THE RULES NOW, BITCH!

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 06, 2025, 08:01:37 PM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 07:46:02 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 06, 2025, 06:20:35 PM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 03:42:02 PM"Christianity, the revolution, the abolition of slavery, equal rights, philanthropy, love of peace, justice, truth: all these big words have value only in a fight, as flags: not as realities but as showy words for something quite different (indeed, opposite!)"
- Nietzsche

How do you or how would you incorporate Nietzsche's slave-master morality split and distinction in your campaign worlds? Nietzsche's slave-master morality framework outlines two opposing ethical systems rooted in social power dynamics. In master morality, the strong and noble define "good" as strength, pride, and power, while labeling weakness and mediocrity as "bad." Conversely, slave morality, emerging from the oppressed, equates "good" with humility, kindness, and sympathy, and brands oppression or the oppressors as "evil." This moral inversion stems from the resentment of the subjugated, who react to the masters' values by flipping them to favor the weak. Historically, Nietzsche viewed the rise of slave morality, epitomized by Christianity, as a cultural shift that overtook master morality, critiquing it for its life-denying resentment while noting master morality's life-affirming creativity.

I'd never thought of incorporating Nietzsche in any of my games because I find the idea stupid.

EDIT: Seriously, where is the fun in using Nietzsche in a role-playing game?

You want to make a fantasy world where believable player characters and NPCS would disrespect Christianity and Judaism without being cartoonishly evil.

Why would I want to make a fantasy world that deliberately disrespected Judaism and Christianity? What's the point?

Because societies running on master morality are the norm, so to speak, it takes a revolution of sorts to spread slave morality.

So by making a setting where master morality is the norm and where slave morality would be mocked, you make a setting that is more believable than a setting in which the only people who would disagree with Christianity/Judaism/Taoism/Buddhism are either stupid or cartoonishly evil. Other than people who say 'I do not believe in such and such god'.

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 08:47:24 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 06, 2025, 08:01:37 PM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 07:46:02 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 06, 2025, 06:20:35 PM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on April 06, 2025, 03:42:02 PM"Christianity, the revolution, the abolition of slavery, equal rights, philanthropy, love of peace, justice, truth: all these big words have value only in a fight, as flags: not as realities but as showy words for something quite different (indeed, opposite!)"
- Nietzsche

How do you or how would you incorporate Nietzsche's slave-master morality split and distinction in your campaign worlds? Nietzsche's slave-master morality framework outlines two opposing ethical systems rooted in social power dynamics. In master morality, the strong and noble define "good" as strength, pride, and power, while labeling weakness and mediocrity as "bad." Conversely, slave morality, emerging from the oppressed, equates "good" with humility, kindness, and sympathy, and brands oppression or the oppressors as "evil." This moral inversion stems from the resentment of the subjugated, who react to the masters' values by flipping them to favor the weak. Historically, Nietzsche viewed the rise of slave morality, epitomized by Christianity, as a cultural shift that overtook master morality, critiquing it for its life-denying resentment while noting master morality's life-affirming creativity.

I'd never thought of incorporating Nietzsche in any of my games because I find the idea stupid.

EDIT: Seriously, where is the fun in using Nietzsche in a role-playing game?

You want to make a fantasy world where believable player characters and NPCS would disrespect Christianity and Judaism without being cartoonishly evil.

Why would I want to make a fantasy world that deliberately disrespected Judaism and Christianity? What's the point?

Because societies running on master morality are the norm, so to speak, it takes a revolution of sorts to spread slave morality.

So by making a setting where master morality is the norm and where slave morality would be mocked, you make a setting that is more believable than a setting in which the only people who would disagree with Christianity/Judaism/Taoism/Buddhism are either stupid or cartoonishly evil. Other than people who say 'I do not believe in such and such god'.

In 44 years of gaming, I've never had the concept of master morality vs slave morality come up in a game. Why bother forcing it in now?