Are humans mandatory for a setting to succeed?

bat · April 04, 2025, 11:21:36 PM

Where exactly did he say this? I looked around and there is a huge variety of human races in the Lord of the Rings alone, (from the Dunedain to the Wild Men to the Wood Woses and many in between} which was written years after The Hobbit, which was a story written for his own children and presumably, not gone into such depth as later works even though a skeleton of The Silmarillion pre-dates The Hobbit, it was very rough. One thing Tolkien undoubtedly said was that he put no allegories into his writing.

Mishihari · April 05, 2025, 01:29:45 AM

Quote from: bat on April 04, 2025, 11:21:36 PMWhere exactly did he say this? I looked around and there is a huge variety of human races in the Lord of the Rings alone, (from the Dunedain to the Wild Men to the Wood Woses and many in between} which was written years after The Hobbit, which was a story written for his own children and presumably, not gone into such depth as later works even though a skeleton of The Silmarillion pre-dates The Hobbit, it was very rough. One thing Tolkien undoubtedly said was that he put no allegories into his writing.

It was an interview. He said that hobbits are the quiet, stay at home nature of men, dwarves are the greedy part, elves are something else, and humanity in LotR is too complicated to explain right now. A quick google search didn't turn it up, but whatever, I read it a long time ago

bat · April 05, 2025, 12:32:05 PM

Fair enough, not EVERYTHING is online.

RPGPundit · April 05, 2025, 04:23:04 PM

If there aren't any humans in the setting, the setting will have a race that are all basically human.

Every other race is either a stereotype, or also human. Someone really creative might make a race that is truly and sincerely ALIEN; but then they would be unplayable, unless in actual play they get turned into a human stereotype, or just human.

D-ko · April 05, 2025, 04:52:35 PM

It seems like there's a caveman rpg where you're literally not allowed to use words. I forget the name.

Trond · April 05, 2025, 06:05:45 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 05, 2025, 01:29:45 AM
Quote from: bat on April 04, 2025, 11:21:36 PMWhere exactly did he say this? I looked around and there is a huge variety of human races in the Lord of the Rings alone, (from the Dunedain to the Wild Men to the Wood Woses and many in between} which was written years after The Hobbit, which was a story written for his own children and presumably, not gone into such depth as later works even though a skeleton of The Silmarillion pre-dates The Hobbit, it was very rough. One thing Tolkien undoubtedly said was that he put no allegories into his writing.

It was an interview. He said that hobbits are the quiet, stay at home nature of men, dwarves are the greedy part, elves are something else, and humanity in LotR is too complicated to explain right now. A quick google search didn't turn it up, but whatever, I read it a long time ago

What I get from it is that elves are more what humans are not. Apart from languages and myth, Tolkien pondered a lot about death. One of the most interesting things about elves is that they are basically immortal.

Mishihari · April 05, 2025, 06:47:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2025, 04:23:04 PMIf there aren't any humans in the setting, the setting will have a race that are all basically human.

Every other race is either a stereotype, or also human. Someone really creative might make a race that is truly and sincerely ALIEN; but then they would be unplayable, unless in actual play they get turned into a human stereotype, or just human.

A lot of people share your opinion and it may be right, but it's one I like to challenge. The best counterexample I've found is CJ Cherryh's Compact Space books. She has a whole set of wonderfully fleshed out and believable alien races, and I think I could play most of them true to their nature, particularly the hani, mahendo'sat, and kif.

ForgottenF · April 05, 2025, 06:50:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2025, 04:23:04 PMIf there aren't any humans in the setting, the setting will have a race that are all basically human.

Every other race is either a stereotype, or also human. Someone really creative might make a race that is truly and sincerely ALIEN; but then they would be unplayable, unless in actual play they get turned into a human stereotype, or just human.

I agree with this. It's the reason I often don't bother with non-humans in my own settings, but it's also the reason I don't mind settings where non-humans predominate. In the end it's really all the same.

Eirikrautha · April 05, 2025, 08:43:07 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 05, 2025, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2025, 04:23:04 PMIf there aren't any humans in the setting, the setting will have a race that are all basically human.

Every other race is either a stereotype, or also human. Someone really creative might make a race that is truly and sincerely ALIEN; but then they would be unplayable, unless in actual play they get turned into a human stereotype, or just human.

A lot of people share your opinion and it may be right, but it's one I like to challenge. The best counterexample I've found is CJ Cherryh's Compact Space books. She has a whole set of wonderfully fleshed out and believable alien races, and I think I could play most of them true to their nature, particularly the hani, mahendo'sat, and kif.

I mentioned her books upthread. It's ironic that you pick the three races that are the most anthropomorphic in her series. They are basically furry humans. If you had said that you could play the t'ca, chi, or knnn, then you'd be talking about playing really alien species. I don't think you proved what you thought you proved with that example.

Mishihari · April 05, 2025, 09:44:56 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 05, 2025, 08:43:07 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 05, 2025, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2025, 04:23:04 PMIf there aren't any humans in the setting, the setting will have a race that are all basically human.

Every other race is either a stereotype, or also human. Someone really creative might make a race that is truly and sincerely ALIEN; but then they would be unplayable, unless in actual play they get turned into a human stereotype, or just human.

A lot of people share your opinion and it may be right, but it's one I like to challenge. The best counterexample I've found is CJ Cherryh's Compact Space books. She has a whole set of wonderfully fleshed out and believable alien races, and I think I could play most of them true to their nature, particularly the hani, mahendo'sat, and kif.
I mentioned her books upthread. It's ironic that you pick the three races that are the most anthropomorphic in her series. They are basically furry humans. If you had said that you could play the t'ca, chi, or knnn, then you'd be talking about playing really alien species. I don't think you proved what you thought you proved with that example.

I wouldn't call any of those three furries. They all have well developed motivations, psychology, and societies that are nothing that humans would do. That's more important than their being mammals with mostly anthropoidal forms.

I didn't remember enough about the bird people to play them. And of course I couldn't play any of the methane breathers - the books I read don't include anything about the motivations, psychology, and society. The hani don't understand them at all so they just describe them as crazy and dangerous.

Eirikrautha · **Today** at 08:48:17 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 05, 2025, 09:44:56 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 05, 2025, 08:43:07 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 05, 2025, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2025, 04:23:04 PMIf there aren't any humans in the setting, the setting will have a race that are all basically human.

Every other race is either a stereotype, or also human. Someone really creative might make a race that is truly and sincerely ALIEN; but then they would be unplayable, unless in actual play they get turned into a human stereotype, or just human.

A lot of people share your opinion and it may be right, but it's one I like to challenge. The best counterexample I've found is CJ Cherryh's Compact Space books. She has a whole set of wonderfully fleshed out and believable alien races, and I think I could play most of them true to their nature, particularly the hani, mahendo'sat, and kif.
I mentioned her books upthread. It's ironic that you pick the three races that are the most anthropomorphic in her series. They are basically furry humans. If you had said that you could play the t'ca, chi, or knnn, then you'd be talking about playing really alien species. I don't think you proved what you thought you proved with that example.

I wouldn't call any of those three furries. They all have well developed motivations, psychology, and societies that are nothing that humans would do. That's more important than their being mammals with mostly anthropoidal forms.

I didn't remember enough about the bird people to play them. And of course I couldn't play any of the methane breathers - the books I read don't include anything about the motivations, psychology, and society. The hani don't understand them at all so they just describe them as crazy and dangerous.

I said furry humans, not furries. I like the books; I'm not going to insult them.

On the gripping hand, though, I need some examples of these "well developed motivations, psychology, and societies that are nothing that humans would do." Because they seem perfectly within human range and understanding to me...

RNGm · **Today** at 09:47:33 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on Today at 08:48:17 AMI said furry humans, not furries. I like the books; I'm not going to insult them.

You're splitting hares with that distinction.

Sacrificial Lamb · **Today** at 11:59:56 AM

What non-human campaign setting has ever been truly successful? I can't think of one.