Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 06:55:57 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 06:34:11 AMI think that you may have missed my use of the word, "subcontractor". You don't buy the printers, you get people who already have them to bid on the part manufacturing jobs. If it's mutually beneficial, you've got a business.

I agree with that. But there are not that many subcontractors in that kind of business in the USA since that is kind of work which had so low margins that it was cheaper to outsource it to countries like China.

So the few available subcontractors left in the USA will have limited capacity and sell their services to the highest bidder (which won't be companies like SJG).

So of course new companies can be founded in that businesses but they have to buy machines which will be more expensive due to tariffs. And for these you need loans which might be difficult to get in that kind of business.

And then you still have the labour shortage in the USA to deal with.

I don't think that you realize how many 3D printers and printing businesses are already out there.

What labour shortage are you talking about?

Quote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AMA few significant disagreements:

1): You don't need the best 3D printers in the world to make tabletop game components. Most 3D printers in this category go for less than $500. You could mark up most of them over 200% and the cost would still be at or below $1000 per unit. Obviously the plastic filaments or resin also cost, but my point is that this is not a particularly unapproachable expense for tabletop game companies.

A simple 3D printer is not useful for mass production which you need for running a business.

Quote2): The shortage for printing services is actually in bookbinding equipment, not printers. Most office supply stores maintain printers which are as good or better than what is needed to print books out, but they tend to not have bookbinding supplies for things other than spiral bound books. The industry will need to go through teething, but that shouldn't surprise, anyone.

Are these printers suitable for mass production and printing several hundred or thousand books?

Quote3) International shipping from Southeast Asia means that quality will almost certainly go up because locally produced books can be produced at the same humidity they are intended to be kept in. SE Asia printing has a lot of problems caused by the heat and humidity. When you take paper products out of the heat and humidity they were created in, they tend to warp as they dry out or absorb moisture.

I am not sure where the most printing companies in China are but I know several in northern China. Especially during wintertime it is awful dry there.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 07:19:19 AMI don't think that you realize how many 3D printers and printing businesses are already out there.

Which need to be suitable for mass production unless you want to pay extremely high prices and wait for real long times.

QuoteWhat labour shortage are you talking about?

Currently the unemployment rate in the USA is about 4.1%. In Florida laws against child labour are becoming more lax because they don't have enough workers.

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMWah! They're taking away my slave labor so I can't get cheap crap now!

Note my post above. I'm going to have zero cost increases because I only source from local printers and manufacturers.

All this is going to do increase the costs of my slave labor and environment destroying competition competing against me unfairly.

I'm crying for them. On the inside.

It's also providing opportunities for people I know to get better jobs. GM just announced they're ramping up production at a plant in my county and will need several hundred additional workers. That means their local suppliers will need to expand production and need new hires as well. Then all the other supporting businesses.

Hell, a decade or so ago I used to laser cut game pieces for some local game producers until I was priced out by China and I've been shopping around with getting a 3D printer to do some custom taillight work for a car restoration guy I already cut acrylic pieces for... doing miniature print runs on the side might make that a better deal for me (with the bed size I'd need for the taillight parts I could probably run 50+ figs at a time and could just set it to run overnight).

I'm pretty sure that, rather than DOOOOOMM!!!^tm, what we're looking at here is called Opportunity.

@Chris
I also think that this will be an opportunity for some. Of course the customers will have to pay.
I doubt that there will be zero cost increases.

Last time when Trump introduced tariffs for steel and aluminium (and I am aware that Biden didn't take them back) the prices for e.g. washing machines Made in SA went up.

So we will see.

Btw it seems that a minor mishap happened here. That quote is not from me.

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AMA few significant disagreements:

1): You don't need the best 3D printers in the world to make tabletop game components. Most 3D printers in this category go for less than $500. You could mark up most of them over 200% and the cost would still be at or below $1000 per unit. Obviously the plastic filaments or resin also cost, but my point is that this is not a particularly unapproachable expense for tabletop game companies.

A simple 3D printer is not useful for mass production which you need for running a business.

You'd better let all those custom miniature businesses know that they are Doing It Wrong then. It doesn't seem to be stopping them from making a profit.

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AM2): The shortage for printing services is actually in bookbinding equipment, not printers. Most office supply stores maintain printers which are as good or better than what is needed to print books out, but they tend to not have bookbinding supplies for things other than spiral bound books. The industry will need to go through teething, but that shouldn't surprise, anyone.

Are these printers suitable for mass production and printing several hundred or thousand books?

Yes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time (they'd last for 10 years instead of 25).

For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AM3) International shipping from Southeast Asia means that quality will almost certainly go up because locally produced books can be produced at the same humidity they are intended to be kept in. SE Asia printing has a lot of problems caused by the heat and humidity. When you take paper products out of the heat and humidity they were created in, they tend to warp as they dry out or absorb moisture.

I am not sure where the most printing companies in China are but I know several in northern China. Especially during wintertime it is awful dry there.

While humidity can really fuck up printing, especially with lightweight paper, you solve that by using air conditioned space with dehumidifier. I worked in Knoxville, TN when at Kinko's and I can guarantee that summers feel like old school science fiction Venus with extra Swamp Ass.

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 07:19:19 AMI don't think that you realize how many 3D printers and printing businesses are already out there.

Which need to be suitable for mass production unless you want to pay extremely high prices and wait for real long times.

A 3D printer made for mass production is just multiple 3D printers. You can get the same effect with a bunch of small businesses subcontracted to you.

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 07:19:19 AMWhat labour shortage are you talking about?

Currently the unemployment rate in the USA is about 4.1%. In Florida laws against child labour are becoming more lax because they don't have enough workers.

How does that apply to what we are talking about? Is that a general number or is it specific to the book printing business and the 3D printing business?

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMYes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time.

For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.

Interesting.   Was that just a regular Kinkos or more of a regional hub where they'd farm out the bigger runs from the normal storefronts out of curiosity?   I'm relatively clueless in this regard so apologies if some of the questions might seem n00bish.  Is 32 pages the limit for saddle stitched staple binding or is 64 pages possible?   I didn't realize commercial office copiers were capable of doing that as it sounds like they could fulfill the printing for average zine, quickstart, or rules light rpg printing just by themselves.

QuoteWhile humidity can really fuck up printing, especially with lightweight paper, you solve that by using air conditioned space with dehumidifier. I worked in Knoxville, TN when at Kinko's and I can guarantee that summers feel like old school science fiction Venus with extra Swamp Ass.

Cedar Bluff Elementary FTW! 

Happy Liberation Day, Meredith!

Quote from: RNGm on April 04, 2025, 09:52:49 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMYes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time.

For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.

Interesting.  Was that just a regular Kinkos or more of a regional hub where they'd farm out the bigger runs from the normal storefronts out of curiosity?  I'm relatively clueless in this regard so apologies if some of the questions might seem n00bish.  Is 32 pages the limit for saddle stitched staple binding or is 64 pages possible?  I didn't realize commercial office copiers were capable of doing that as it sounds like they could fulfill the printing for average zine, quickstart, or rules light rpg printing just by themselves.

We were the city hub store on Kingston Pike, there were three other stores in Knoxville. For an all-in-one commercial printer I'd keep it at 48 pages or less because any more pages overstresses the folder mechanism (which is plastic and I swear to God, designed to break). You could probably get 64 pages out of it if you used 10-15 pound 11x17 paper, but that is so flimsy that it would tend to jam in the copier during print runs.

Quote from: RNGm on April 04, 2025, 09:52:49 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMWhile humidity can really fuck up printing, especially with lightweight paper, you solve that by using air conditioned space with dehumidifier. I worked in Knoxville, TN when at Kinko's and I can guarantee that summers feel like old school science fiction Venus with extra Swamp Ass.

Cedar Bluff Elementary FTW! 

Ha! Cedar Bluff Middle School and a year of Farragut High before I moved! Used to buy my games and dice at The Yankee Peddler!

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMCurrently the unemployment rate in the USA is about 4.1%. In Florida laws against child labour are becoming more lax because they don't have enough workers.

The vast majority of economists agree that full employment is an unemployment rate of 5% or less. 4.1% is well within full employment parameters, therefore there is no employment shortage.

Also, the majority of teens who work that the bill would effect work in places like grocery stores and entertainment (Disneyworld, Universal Studios, etc). We're not talking about places like meat packing or manufacturing. The percentage of people who fall within that age bracket aren't that significant either. So, you're about a specific job category (grocery stores) for a specific age group (14-17). The number is insignificant and it's only in Florida. It's not like that parents can't just tell their kids not to work their. They can quit or decline to sign the waiver to allow them to work extended hours.

BTW, the Fla law has nothing to do with lack of labor. I've checked multiple sources. It's about aligning with federal standards.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Quote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 10:39:23 AMand it's only in Florida.

So many terrible things get dismissed for being "only in Florida" until they spread...

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 10:31:32 AM

Quote from: RNGm on April 04, 2025, 09:52:49 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMYes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time.

For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.

Interesting.  Was that just a regular Kinkos or more of a regional hub where they'd farm out the bigger runs from the normal storefronts out of curiosity?  I'm relatively clueless in this regard so apologies if some of the questions might seem n00bish.  Is 32 pages the limit for saddle stitched staple binding or is 64 pages possible?  I didn't realize commercial office copiers were capable of doing that as it sounds like they could fulfill the printing for average zine, quickstart, or rules light rpg printing just by themselves.

We were the city hub store on Kingston Pike, there were three other stores in Knoxville. For an all-in-one commercial printer I'd keep it at 48 pages or less because any more pages overstresses the folder mechanism (which is plastic and I swear to God, designed to break). You could probably get 64 pages out of it if you used 10-15 pound 11x17 paper, but that is so flimsy that it would tend to jam in the copier during print runs.

I agree that it's designed to break to save the company likely 10-15 cents but then charge for repairs.   I was cluelessly hoping that 64 pages would be the limit but not at the cost of tissue paper durability/quality.  Regardless, it's nice to know that it's at least a possibility locally. 

Quote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 10:39:23 AMThe vast majority of economists agree that full employment is an unemployment rate of 5% or less. 4.1% is well within full employment parameters, therefore there is no employment shortage.

Dude, that number means that only a few people are looking for a job. Quite often these are people who are unemployable.

QuoteAlso, the majority of teens who work that the bill would effect work in places like grocery stores and entertainment (Disneyworld, Universal Studios, etc). We're not talking about places like meat packing or manufacturing. The percentage of people who fall within that age bracket aren't that significant either. So, you're about a specific job category (grocery stores) for a specific age group (14-17). The number is insignificant and it's only in Florida. It's not like that parents can't just tell their kids not to work their. They can quit or decline to sign the waiver to allow them to work extended hours.

You know that some families cannot afford not to sign such waivers or these kids to quit. And while this may only affect a specific kind of job it is a clear sign that there is a labour shortage.

QuoteBTW, the Fla law has nothing to do with lack of labor. I've checked multiple sources. It's about aligning with federal standards.

I also checked and it seems that it is more aligning to the standards of red states and not federal standards.

@Jeff
Assuming that everything is great and that there will be no additional costs and better quality - why were people like Chris outprized by China?

Ok, I am out of this discussion. We will see how it goes. In my opinion you will have to face raised prices and lower quality (at least in the beginning).
Fortunately I am not affected by this stuff. Free League is in Sweden and Modiphius is seated in the UK

Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AM@Jeff
Assuming that everything is great and that there will be no additional costs and better quality - why were people like Chris outprized by China?

Ok, I am out of this discussion. We will see how it goes. In my opinion you will have to face raised prices and lower quality (at least in the beginning).
Fortunately I am not affected by this stuff. Free League is in Sweden and Modiphius is seated in the UK

OK, which Chris are you talking about? You've lost me and I won't be able to answer your question accurately until I know which Chris.

Also, you may be feeling smug too soon. Free League may be in Sweden and Modiphius may be in the UK, but that doesn't mean that their books are printed in those countries.

So now they're complaining about RPG book printing? All my POD stuff from DTRPG and Amazon comes from Coppell, TX (Dallas) and La Vergne, TN (Nashville). There's literally no need to get anything printed in China except because you are unwilling to fork over the upfront cost of a decent sized printrun for full bleed. That's it. They're fucking game books; this hobby is so inundated with metric tons of "style over substance" that I welcome more indie designers producing good quality stuff and the large corps going out of business because they can't afford to get their coffee table non-playable bullshit produced anymore.


Whatever.

The videos complaining are starting to come out.

Cry harder.