Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 23, 2025, 08:55:53 AM2. For accomplishments, that's where the "anything else obviously heroic in the terms of the game or a goal the players have set for themselves".

OK, but do you require that there be some goal? Or does a player get XP just for, say, being somewhere dangerous?

Quote from: BadApple on March 23, 2025, 02:55:06 PMI honestly think that XP for gold is the right way to go.

If you're only speaking of old-school style play of D&D proper, you might have a point.

But gold/money for XP makes zero sense in a superhero rpg. Do Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark just start at max level since they probably earn more from dividends in a day than most would earn in a lifetime? Is Clark Kent stuck leveling up at a crawl because of his reporter's salary unless he lands a book deal?

Similarly, it makes little sense for a modern military or spy campaign... do you just level up every X number of paychecks unless you take under the table side-jobs?

Nor does it make a lot of sense in a post-apocalyptic genre... maybe you could value the supplies acquired, but that gets pretty reductive pretty quickly as just gathering supplies is usually only a small part of overcoming the obstacles of the post-apocalyptic world.

Using gold for XP where you're playing the Rebels in a Star Wars campaign doesn't feel like a good fit at all.

Even some fantasy games wouldn't have gold for XP make much sense; ex. Ars Magica where turning lead into gold is just a thing you could learn to do wouldn't be a good fit for that model for example.

So, gold for XP is great for old school D&D style explore and conquer campaigns and using wealth for XP might make sense for certain campaign subsets in other genres (ex. sci-fi free traders), its not a one-size-fits all approach for acquiring XP in the way a system like Palladium's (broadly applicable regardless of genre) or the GM just deciding when you level up would.

Quote from: Zalman on March 23, 2025, 05:16:51 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 23, 2025, 08:55:53 AM2. For accomplishments, that's where the "anything else obviously heroic in the terms of the game or a goal the players have set for themselves".

OK, but do you require that there be some goal? Or does a player get XP just for, say, being somewhere dangerous?

Well, I don't require a goal. I don't even require that there be indirect goals in the form of random opportunities to meet de facto goals.  Characters just going into a dangerous area and killing monsters get less XP for more risk than if there was something more going on, but I'm leaving that decision on their side of the screen.

As a practical matter, I don't really design any locations such that there aren't at least a few opportunities to score something else.  For a heroic fantasy game, getting out with the big treasure haul is an accomplishment.  I count that too, which is my nod to "gold for XP".  OTOH, I'm also not shy about hiding such things in secret rooms or making it non-obvious. So sometimes players do fail to interact with anything that would generate bonus XP. 

Really, the main way I handle this is in the explicit telling them what they got XP for.  That encourages them to set goals, but leaves the motivation up to them.  I find in practice that about half or a bit more of the players just kind of go along with whatever the more motivated ones do, since I have a lot of casual players. However, that's fine too in a large group.  It doesn't take much of a carrot to get a few of the more active ones chasing something that interests them.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 23, 2025, 07:52:34 PM

Quote from: BadApple on March 23, 2025, 02:55:06 PMI honestly think that XP for gold is the right way to go.

If you're only speaking of old-school style play of D&D proper, you might have a point.

But gold/money for XP makes zero sense in a superhero rpg. Do Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark just start at max level since they probably earn more from dividends in a day than most would earn in a lifetime? Is Clark Kent stuck leveling up at a crawl because of his reporter's salary unless he lands a book deal?

Similarly, it makes little sense for a modern military or spy campaign... do you just level up every X number of paychecks unless you take under the table side-jobs?

Nor does it make a lot of sense in a post-apocalyptic genre... maybe you could value the supplies acquired, but that gets pretty reductive pretty quickly as just gathering supplies is usually only a small part of overcoming the obstacles of the post-apocalyptic world.

Using gold for XP where you're playing the Rebels in a Star Wars campaign doesn't feel like a good fit at all.

Even some fantasy games wouldn't have gold for XP make much sense; ex. Ars Magica where turning lead into gold is just a thing you could learn to do wouldn't be a good fit for that model for example.

So, gold for XP is great for old school D&D style explore and conquer campaigns and using wealth for XP might make sense for certain campaign subsets in other genres (ex. sci-fi free traders), its not a one-size-fits all approach for acquiring XP in the way a system like Palladium's (broadly applicable regardless of genre) or the GM just deciding when you level up would.

XP for gold may not be a universal solution but I still contend that it works best in most types of games.  As of yet, I haven't run a game where it hasn't worked smoothly and it always seems to work better than other systems I've tried.

It works extremely well in a skills game like CoC or Traveller.  The players can buy instructional material or training that gives you the skill increases.  I have used this in Cyberpunk, Traveller, various fantasy games, and have even applied it to a zombie apocalypse game I ran.  In all these games, it felt natural in universe.

In a military game, your performance would be a direct avenue of being offered training and promotions.  This could be a simple milestone system or a meta currency of directly being paid bonuses in XP.  I'd imagine this could work in a supers game as well.  "Gold" in this case would be more of an abstract in these kinds of games; "reputation" might be traded for favors like intel, special access, or training.

Also, I'm expressing my opinion based on my personal years at the table.  Anything I say is all about what I've seen makes rolling dice and having fun work. I'm not a ridged grognard demanding everyone do it my way, just saying that this seems to be what holds up the best in my experience.  If I sit at your table as a player, I'm happy to just go with whatever you want to do.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 23, 2025, 07:52:34 PMEven some fantasy games wouldn't have gold for XP make much sense; ex. Ars Magica where turning lead into gold is just a thing you could learn to do wouldn't be a good fit for that model for example.

I'd read "relevant rare valuables" for "gold". I know Ars Magica is set up so that your wizards learn as the seasons pass, and IIRC get XP for participating in adventures however defined. It occurs to me that with "vis for XP", though, you might get something that feels a lot more like old-school domain play. The natural categories of adventure might be:

• the wizards defend their covenant (domain, accumulated power) against direct threats
• the wizards get involved in mundane or tribunal politics
• the wizards go on expeditions to get more vis

The first two are about diegetic goals that theoretically arise naturally in the sandboxy domain-game, and aren't about character growth; the third gives us more of a reason to go delving than curiosity. It's maybe already there implicitly, since adventure hooks are often new artifacts or sources of magic if they aren't threats to the covenant.

(This kind of analysis also seems apt for Arion Games' Sorcerers of Ur-Turuk, which is roughly Ars Magica in fantasy Mesopotamia; I love the concept, but am not sure I'm sold on either the rules or the particular setting...)

Quote from: Naburimannu on March 24, 2025, 05:22:09 AMI'd read "relevant rare valuables" for "gold".

That's how I meant it.  It just seems that games I run are better when players are spending resources on PC progression that they have to balance with gear and other items.  Games also seem to be more real to the players if the economy of the world is functional and that they can interact with it in different ways.

I don't care for milestone XP because the players usually have no idea how to control it. XP method is how you communicate victory conditions. If the players don't know what those are then they can't pursue them. It doesn't have to be gold but whatever is used the players should know what it is so that they can make informed decisions on how to go after it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2025, 07:15:06 AMI don't care for milestone XP because the players usually have no idea how to control it. XP method is how you communicate victory conditions. If the players don't know what those are then they can't pursue them. It doesn't have to be gold but whatever is used the players should know what it is so that they can make informed decisions on how to go after it.

Amen.

Players tend to do what the game incentivizes them to do. I start by asking what do we want to do in this the current game/campaign/adventure? What is the feel or play style we're going for as a table? Then tailor the XP system (or choose the game system) that best facilitates that.

Personally I prefer running sandbox style games where the story emerges from the players' choices. For plot milestones to function as an incentive, they have to be both known and somewhat static. I don't plan more than one or two sessions ahead, so if I'm setting a milestone based on player choice it's harder to pivot when the players do.

I aim to reward characters for achieving their in game goals with in game rewards, and base the metacurrency of XP on things that reinforce the play style for that campaign but are not plot related.

Quote from: Festus on March 25, 2025, 12:48:11 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2025, 07:15:06 AMI don't care for milestone XP because the players usually have no idea how to control it. XP method is how you communicate victory conditions. If the players don't know what those are then they can't pursue them. It doesn't have to be gold but whatever is used the players should know what it is so that they can make informed decisions on how to go after it.

Amen.

Players tend to do what the game incentivizes them to do. I start by asking what do we want to do in this the current game/campaign/adventure? What is the feel or play style we're going for as a table? Then tailor the XP system (or choose the game system) that best facilitates that.

This.  I usually go with the default rules for whatever games I'm playing, but if I do something else the first question is always "what do I want the players to do?"

I am pretty much okay with anything when it comes to XP. It can function both as a reward system but also a pacing mechanism (i.e. it is hard to have a long campaign of D&D if you level every single session). But that also makes XP and how it operates very important. I generally favor XP that reflects growth of the PC and their skills. That can be challenging to abstract. But I've done it in different ways as well. Most of my games follow more of the reward given each adventure for achieving certain things (like killing a higher level foe, finding a manual, etc). But recently I wanted to run a special session of play, where characters advance more like in a Shaw Brothers movie. So I am going to advance the players from levels 1-6 over the course of a single adventure (probably 2-3 sessions, but it could even be done in 1 if things move very efficiently). So I want things to be more fluid to facilitate the players advancing enough to contend with a level 9 foe by the end of the adventure.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2025, 07:15:06 AMI don't care for milestone XP because the players usually have no idea how to control it. XP method is how you communicate victory conditions.

For my eventually-upcoming run of Rappan Athuk, I decided to use milestones for a variety of reasons, but the method is going to be explained to the players. Every time they gain access to a new floor and return to base camp with that knowledge, they level.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on March 25, 2025, 05:33:26 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2025, 07:15:06 AMI don't care for milestone XP because the players usually have no idea how to control it. XP method is how you communicate victory conditions.

For my eventually-upcoming run of Rappan Athuk, I decided to use milestones for a variety of reasons, but the method is going to be explained to the players. Every time they gain access to a new floor and return to base camp with that knowledge, they level.

That works. The players know that XP is given for discovery of new territory and returning to report it. They can approach play knowing their goal is to find unexplored territory.

I left a similar comment on Pundit's video, but I have used milestone leveling for most of the time I've been a GM.

I don't find that milestone leveling necessarily leads to railroading or linear adventures. It may be that I am doing milestones "wrong". Players usually get a level (or an advance since I've been using savage worlds a lot) after completing a significant goal. Often that means "surviving the current scenario". Players pursuing their own goals within the scenario I promote through in-game currencies, which I know is a bit of a controversial debate in itself.

Additionally, my games, I argue, are not railroaded because the scenarios are built around the player choices and goals. I usually ask players to give me one or two concrete goals for their characters. Significant progress toward a goal is a milestone, and players all get levels for participating in the adventures, regardless of whose goal is being pursued since they are necessarily contributing by going on the adventure. I've been lucky enough that all the players in my games so far have been adults and know that there is no point in trying to game the system. I'm not giving you a level for the goal of "walk to the next town over". The goal should be something like "walk to the next town over to reconcile with an estranged father which is the beginning of an adventure about needing to avenge his untimely death two weeks ago which the character never heard about because they have been burning family letters unopened".

It should be said that I have mostly played with relative normies so tracking xp almost always ends with them forgetting or losing whatever it is they use to track their xp. So i end up tracking xp most of the time anyway and telling them when they level, which is functionally the same as milestones.

Quote from: Hzilong on March 25, 2025, 08:38:44 PMI left a similar comment on Pundit's video, but I have used milestone leveling for most of the time I've been a GM.

I don't find that milestone leveling necessarily leads to railroading or linear adventures. It may be that I am doing milestones "wrong".

Some things that some people think are milestone leveling are actually just very non-granular XP systems.

For example, let's say you only level up the PCs if they overcome something actually challenging to them; tasks that if left purely to dice in a direct approach they would likely fail (meaning they must typically use cleverness to exploit the circumstances).

That isn't milestone leveling, that's an xp system with a single broad condition and 1xp per level. If you wanted to make it more granular, you could make it distinct to the individual PC and maybe require they face challenges equal to their current level to gain one (a good choice for games that cap fairly low in levels (ex. level 10 would need 45 challenges overcome, level 15 would need 95).

A milestone is "the players have overcome 'chapter one' (the first dungeon where they uncover a greater plot, no matter how they do it) so are now level two. They'll become level three after they finish 'chapter two' travel to the wizard's tower (regardless of how much or how little they do in the meantime)."

In a milestone system what matters is hitting an important "plot point." In an XP system, regardless of granularity, PCs have to accomplish something general to gain xp/levels.

I actuallyndo really like XP for gold. In my own system thats what I use. I also give XP for domain income and mass combat stuff and a little for fighting monsters.
I also use a lot of money sinks. The armies, magical research, thieves guild stuff (including lawyers and bribes), building construction, retainers, all that kind of stuff. Having a lot to do with the money kinda feels, at least to me, like the characters level is also tied to an ability to make other influences on the world via the treasure they've amassed. It works really well.