Quote from: Habitual Gamer on March 25, 2025, 12:04:36 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 24, 2025, 10:19:47 PMPersonally, I'm kind of glad it fell through. The current hobby culture can just barely handle Middle-Earth; I think it's far too cynical, flippant, and Christophobic to do Narnia.

Pretty much this.  The argument that "it's too childish" seems silly, given that I can cite RPGs that are "childish" by any definition you'd like to use (too kid focused, too moralistic, too simple in its morality, too absurd, etc.).

The "current hobby culture" as a whole doesn't have to be able to handle Narnia. The question is, are there enough gamers who can handle Narnia as a setting to play games together? I think that's certainly a yes.

I agree that in the age of renewed interest in gonzo settings, that Narnia is hardly too absurd. And as for being simplistic in its morality or kidsy, Lewis is anything but simplistic. Yes, he has Christian themes, but he puts an enormous amount of thought into his Christian beliefs.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on March 25, 2025, 12:04:36 PMThe more I think on it though, wasn't Blue Rose basically Narnia for the social progressive crowd (as social progressives looked twenty years ago)?

Blue Rose was more closely based on Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar rather than Narnia. Narnia predates the category of "romantic fantasy" that Blue Rose discusses, but still, there are some common threads.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on March 25, 2025, 12:04:36 PMOn the other hand, it'd be great to see people wailing and gnashing about The Problem of Susan, to show they'd read more commentary on the books than the books themselves.  And yes, put me firmly in the camp of "the author's notes should weigh heavily in all consideration of the works they created, and while technically aren't canon are certainly an elevated level of authority."  But even without said notes, the texts themselves answer the part of the "Problem" people care about pretty well (i.e. Susan will eventually be a Queen of Narnia again).

I like that answer. It would have to be set in a future of Narnia rather than in the mid-book period.

Quote from: jhkim on March 25, 2025, 12:34:52 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on March 25, 2025, 12:04:36 PMPretty much this.  The argument that "it's too childish" seems silly, given that I can cite RPGs that are "childish" by any definition you'd like to use (too kid focused, too moralistic, too simple in its morality, too absurd, etc.).

The "current hobby culture" as a whole doesn't have to be able to handle Narnia. The question is, are there enough gamers who can handle Narnia as a setting to play games together? I think that's certainly a yes.

I agree that in the age of renewed interest in gonzo settings, that Narnia is hardly too absurd. And as for being simplistic in its morality or kidsy, Lewis is anything but simplistic. Yes, he has Christian themes, but he puts an enormous amount of thought into his Christian beliefs.

Agreed, but it's a complaint I've seen people try to make before. 

Quote from: jhkim on March 25, 2025, 12:34:52 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on March 25, 2025, 12:04:36 PMThe more I think on it though, wasn't Blue Rose basically Narnia for the social progressive crowd (as social progressives looked twenty years ago)?

Blue Rose was more closely based on Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar rather than Narnia. Narnia predates the category of "romantic fantasy" that Blue Rose discusses, but still, there are some common threads.

Fair enough.

Quote from: jhkim on March 25, 2025, 12:34:52 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on March 25, 2025, 12:04:36 PMOn the other hand, it'd be great to see people wailing and gnashing about The Problem of Susan, to show they'd read more commentary on the books than the books themselves.  And yes, put me firmly in the camp of "the author's notes should weigh heavily in all consideration of the works they created, and while technically aren't canon are certainly an elevated level of authority."  But even without said notes, the texts themselves answer the part of the "Problem" people care about pretty well (i.e. Susan will eventually be a Queen of Narnia again).

I like that answer. It would have to be set in a future of Narnia rather than in the mid-book period.

I always assumed Lewis was referring to his ideas of Susan finding Aslan again (through Christianity and Jesus) and rejoining her siblings in Aslan's perfected Narnia.  After all, Narnia is destroyed at the end of TLB, and Aslan takes them to a Narnia without evil.

And that's a world which would make for a dull setting by TTRPG standards, IMO.

Honestly, I think any time after the defeat of the White Witch and the end of TLB would make for a good time. There's supposedly a thousand years between the Pevensies leaving Narnia as royalty and then returning again for example.

I'm going to focus more on why you don't see this game, or maybe more accurately, why you don't see it more often.

I read the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. It was considered classic children's literature when I grew up, and pretty much everybody who could read had read the story and enjoyed it to some degree. I don't have much to say about the rest of the books. I read a few chapters of Prince Caspian, and then wandered off. I don't think I'm unusual in this regard. Lots of people have only read that first book, and don't think about the other six. When some of you guys talk about Narnia, you're genuinely referring to the whole seven book series, but for a lot of us, Narnia = The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. That means Narnia isn't this rich fantasy world, it's a single relatively short children's book.

Is the Chronicles of Narnia children's fantasy literature, or is it Christian apologetics for children? In my experience, any time I acknowledge that I've read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, that's been perceived as an invitation to insert Christianity into the conversation. It's like the Chronicles of Narnia is some kind of code for, "I am a Christian and would like to talk about Jesus. Are you a fellow Christian also looking to talk about Jesus?" That means I'm going to perceive a Narnia role-playing game as Bible study disguised as game night.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 24, 2025, 12:11:45 PMIt's increasingly clear to me that other people do not see what I see when reading those books.

I've put some though into This. First off: I think I said this in the other thread, but I absolutely would not include children from the real world as PCs in a Narnia Campaign. I don't understand why some people seem to think that's compulsory.

Children from the real world is the story. Four kids step through a coat closet and have a Christian-themed adventure where they save the world from evil. The fact that they're from the real world is important in the story. If you take that away, it's no longer the Narnia that everyone fell in love with as a kid.

Sure, you could come up with some campaign that involved purely in-world characters, but how is that any different from any other fantasy role-playing game? I may as well be playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. When you say, "Narnia," it immediately conjures up images of stepping through a portal into a magical fairy tale world. The magic isn't in Narnia itself, it's in those old coats we had to push aside in order to get there.

Quote from: jhkim on March 25, 2025, 12:34:52 PM

Quote

QuotePersonally, I'm kind of glad it fell through. The current hobby culture can just barely handle Middle-Earth; I think it's far too cynical, flippant, and Christophobic to do Narnia.

Pretty much this.  The argument that "it's too childish" seems silly, given that I can cite RPGs that are "childish" by any definition you'd like to use (too kid focused, too moralistic, too simple in its morality, too absurd, etc.).

The "current hobby culture" as a whole doesn't have to be able to handle Narnia. The question is, are there enough gamers who can handle Narnia as a setting to play games together? I think that's certainly a yes.

Maybe I will actually do this experiment some day, but I think a Narnia campaign would be largely self-selecting. If I went on Roll20 and advertised I was running one, I don't think people who regard the books as too childish, moralistic, or absurd would ask to join the game. If anything, my concern would be about getting people that are a  too squeamish or concerned about whether the campaign was properly "Christian" enough.

Quote from: Corolinth on March 25, 2025, 02:42:29 PMChildren from the real world is the story. Four kids step through a coat closet and have a Christian-themed adventure where they save the world from evil. The fact that they're from the real world is important in the story. If you take that away, it's no longer the Narnia that everyone fell in love with as a kid.

That's a perspective I understand, particularly if you've only read the first book, but I have to disagree. It sounds like saying "It's not Star Wars unless it's about a farmer who becomes a Jedi and brings down the Empire", or "It's not Middle Earth unless its a cross country journey to dispose of an evil artifact".

The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe leans very heavily on the Isekai elements and the existence of Narnia as a teaching tool for the Pevensies. The Narnian characters are very much "NPCs", instrumentalities for the heroes' journey with minimal time put into their own inner lives, goals or conflicts. You could say much the same of The Magician's Nephew, but the other books put increasing emphasis on the occupants of Narnia as heroes and protagonists in their own right. Prince Caspian makes the title character as much the protagonist as the Pevensies are. In Dawn Treader, Eustace gets a growth arc, but Edmund and Lucy are mostly just along for the ride. Silver Chair is more about the children, but it's less allegorical and more a straightforward adventure story. In the Horse and His Boy, all the protagonists are Narnians (the world, not the nation), and the Pevensies get little more than a cameo.

Quote from: Corolinth on March 25, 2025, 02:42:29 PMSure, you could come up with some campaign that involved purely in-world characters, but how is that any different from any other fantasy role-playing game? I may as well be playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. When you say, "Narnia," it immediately conjures up images of stepping through a portal into a magical fairy tale world. The magic isn't in Narnia itself, it's in those old coats we had to push aside in order to get there.

You could say the same thing of Greyhawk, Mystara, Middle-Earth, the Witcher, or whatever. The difference is in the tone and feeling of the world, which is always difficult to concisely state. Don't really have time to put it into properly thought out words now, but I'll come back later and type it out if I can come up with the right phrasing.

Quote from: Corolinth on March 25, 2025, 02:42:29 PMSure, you could come up with some campaign that involved purely in-world characters, but how is that any different from any other fantasy role-playing game? I may as well be playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. When you say, "Narnia," it immediately conjures up images of stepping through a portal into a magical fairy tale world. The magic isn't in Narnia itself, it's in those old coats we had to push aside in order to get there.

A Horse and His Boy is all about in world characters. Prince Caspian and Voyage of the Dawn Treader both feature main characters that are in world born. 

I think the real issue with RP in Narnia is that the themes are very restrictive and the world is built around a specific narrative structure As opposed to The Lord of the Rings where the story is just one narrative taking place in a much larger and nuanced world.  Narnia is intentionally limited in scope.

If I were to look at one of these early modern English fantasy books other than Tolkien for a world to base an RPG on, I'd choose Phantasies by George Macdonald.  It would work a lot like CoC but it would be our world connected to and influenced by old Germanic style fairies and elves rather than Lovecraft horror.

Try "Through the Hedgerow" from Osprey RPGs. Narnia is in my mind a closed setting, the novels cover the important events from Narnia's creation to destruction, what the point of playing minor side heroes? Through the Hedgerow covers many of the same concepts but is a more open setting and could be adjusted to taste.

Quote from: worrapol on March 25, 2025, 06:10:28 PMTry "Through the Hedgerow" from Osprey RPGs. Narnia is in my mind a closed setting, the novels cover the important events from Narnia's creation to destruction, what the point of playing minor side heroes? Through the Hedgerow covers many of the same concepts but is a more open setting and could be adjusted to taste.

Yeah, Lewis himself used the same conceits, only quasi-sci/fi in his space trilogy (starting with "Out of the Silent Planet").  "Till We Have Faces" is low fantasy version of Greek Myth, albeit without the out of world character. Even some of his theology uses that technique (e.g. "The Great Divorce").  It's even implied (very lightly) in Narnia that it is only one world where that happens.

A much better campaign inspired by Narnia would be a new world with its own details where the players don't know all the background, get transported there, and play out whatever themes you want.  You can make them as Narnia-like or not as you want, with obviously a bigger appeal for sticking with the main Narnia ideas if that's how it is being pitched.  That way, the world itself can have its own version of creation and ending and the PCs can be central to how that goes. 

Exactly, Steven. What people really want is a game system that will facilitate something like Narnia. There are many games it could be done with, but at least Through the Hedgerow is already aimed in that direction.

It's fine for someone to want a game that takes place in the world itself. I don't know why that idea is so repulsive to people in the thread. You can be characters from the world or you could be a different group of kids. Who cares. It has the same inherent limitations and opportunities as any existing setting. If I'm playing a game set in Middle Earth or Star Wars I have to deal with the existing canon events, either deciding to ignore them or hold to them or something in between.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on March 24, 2025, 01:36:29 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on March 24, 2025, 09:50:02 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on March 24, 2025, 12:02:04 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 23, 2025, 08:50:34 PMI always felt Narnia was blatantly for kids.  Talking animals, crazy adventures, but a lack of violence, no difficult and rare words, and a low page count certainly imply it.

I would say that was true of some of the earlier published stories, later Lewis thankfully walked back some of it being overtly just Christian allegory, some of the later stories and extra material pertaining to the White Witch get fairly lovecraftian.

Haven't read The Last Battle, have we?

Two points:

• Even if an author of a work says something in a letter, if it isn't in the book, it isn't canon. It's interpretation. I had this exact issue with Rowling making Dumbledore gay.
• The Chronicles of Narnia books are not all in the same literary genre.

By modern standards Lewis as a fiction writer is a bit of a klutz. This is not to say that his work isn't better than modern DEI nonsense, but that he mostly failed to draw clean creative or genre lines. The early books are what we would today call normal speculative fiction, but as the books progress the allegorical elements start to come into play. It's never a true allegory the way The Pilgrim's Regress is, but it isn't completely devoid of allegorical elements, either. Putting on my book editor cap, Lewis clearly bit off way more than he could chew by trying to write a children's book, then to expand it with allegorical elements as the book series progressed. I can only think of one author who has tried something analogous; Rowling with Harry Potter, and Rowling was way more restrained with the allegorical elements.

I admire the ambition and the fact that Lewis didn't completely wreck the landing with no survivors. But at the same time, Lewis did crash land.


If I had to pick a Lewis book series to roleplay in, I would probably actually opt for The Space Trilogy. Lewis's interpretation of Mars is actually quite the interesting take on a fantasy setting with multiple races. Don't get me wrong; it's not fantastic, but I think that most groups would enjoy it better than they would Narnia. This isn't to say The Space Trilogy is flawless, either, but that The Space Trilogy isn't really anybody's sacred cow.

This is your allotted single reply for this thread, but no I did not read the Last Battle, my relation to Lewis' fiction is more tenuous than his other works.

What I am referring to are things that happened in the cannon texts which I have read which gave that implication to me. The Deplorable Word as a concept in relation to the White Witch, a word so potent it can wipe all life from a universe certainly sounds existentially nightmarish, and certainly transcends her from being merely a Satan metaphor.

but addressing point 1 a bit,  a counter example, a good chunk of Tolkien's explanations for things in his setting can only be found in his notes/letters or extra material, but I doubt you'd take any issue in treating those as cannon? even if treated as secondary they'd still be in consideration.
you dislike how Rowling handled it partly for partisan reasons and secondly for the spirit in which the changes were invoked.

Canon has two n's, not three. Cannon is the artillery piece.

As the more limited narrative scope of Narnia compared to LotR has come up elsewhere in this thread, I think this warrants a second look. It isn't exactly that Narnia is limited, but that the core creative decisions mean that the setting is not about moral nuance, and in roleplay, moral nuance is usually where a lot of the value of roleplay plants its feet, so you will have somewhat limited roleplay potential.

The point of the Delplorable word is to make the morality conflict black and white by illustrating Jadis's character. She has absolutely no regard for life or moral limits, and when she failed to rule, she chose to destroy instead. Does this fit with her being a Satan allegory? Yes and no. I would argue that Satan probably would make the same decision for different reasons (his motivation is typically described as a hatred of humanity, and not a desire for power.) However, if you gave Satan access to the Deplorable Word, he would probably use it with even less restraint than Jadis. It's not a perfect fit, but it isn't like it doesn't work at all. But I never said the allegory worked cleanly. On the contrary, I explicitly said it was a pretty messy affair.

If you've never read The Last Battle, it's Lewis's attempt to apply Revelation to Narnia having an end of days. While it has the strongest allegorical elements of the series, it is still not pure allegory, and probably isn't intended to be. The Chronicles of Narnia is a literary experiment which is neither a conventional speculative novel, nor an allegory, but which explores the space between the two, with different books occupying different places on the spectrum.

As to the Tolkien Letters: it is not controversial to say Tolkien's letters are not canon because they include multiple explanations which often feel contradictory.

Quote from: worrapol on March 25, 2025, 06:10:28 PMTry "Through the Hedgerow" from Osprey RPGs. Narnia is in my mind a closed setting, the novels cover the important events from Narnia's creation to destruction, what the point of playing minor side heroes? Through the Hedgerow covers many of the same concepts but is a more open setting and could be adjusted to taste.

I never mind playing the "side heroes". They make a world feel like it's got more depth. And, as the saying goes, everyone is the hero of their own story. The Horse and His Boy is a great example of characters who aren't the Pevensie children having their own adventure in the greater setting.

Quote from: Spobo on March 25, 2025, 06:36:03 PMIt's fine for someone to want a game that takes place in the world itself. I don't know why that idea is so repulsive to people in the thread. You can be characters from the world or you could be a different group of kids. Who cares. It has the same inherent limitations and opportunities as any existing setting. If I'm playing a game set in Middle Earth or Star Wars I have to deal with the existing canon events, either deciding to ignore them or hold to them or something in between.

It's fine to want it.  It's another thing to get it.  My point is mainly practical, in that an RPG is not a novel, and your chances of getting what you want there are even more limited than they would be elsewhere. 

Then there's the aspect that even assuming good intentions, I wouldn't trust most people to do a good job, because their own things they want to put in without understanding the source material would sour it. 

But then, I don't find your examples of Star Wars or Middle Earth very convincing either, because I'm not blown away by attempts to render those into games--and those are a lot easier properties to theoretically pull that off than some. 

I'll grant if people just want the ambience, you can do that.  It is merely that I prefer not to settle for that.

One thought I've had, is that the Calamoren aren't Turks or Arabs.  When you think about it, they're Persians that never turned to Islam and are still worshiping Baal.  Narnia's external politics are somewhat limited, you've got the Telamerines who fled their homeland and conquered Narnia, Calamoren as an aggressive if remote threat, and Archenland as a human kingdom on the borders of Narnia.  Sure there's some islands and giant lands but most of the adventures would probably happen within Narnia and generally involve the threat of magical creatures that supported the witch.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 25, 2025, 07:00:06 PM

Quote from: Spobo on March 25, 2025, 06:36:03 PMIt's fine for someone to want a game that takes place in the world itself. I don't know why that idea is so repulsive to people in the thread. You can be characters from the world or you could be a different group of kids. Who cares. It has the same inherent limitations and opportunities as any existing setting. If I'm playing a game set in Middle Earth or Star Wars I have to deal with the existing canon events, either deciding to ignore them or hold to them or something in between.

It's fine to want it.  It's another thing to get it.  My point is mainly practical, in that an RPG is not a novel, and your chances of getting what you want there are even more limited than they would be elsewhere. 

Then there's the aspect that even assuming good intentions, I wouldn't trust most people to do a good job, because their own things they want to put in without understanding the source material would sour it. 

But then, I don't find your examples of Star Wars or Middle Earth very convincing either, because I'm not blown away by attempts to render those into games--and those are a lot easier properties to theoretically pull that off than some. 

I'll grant if people just want the ambience, you can do that.  It is merely that I prefer not to settle for that.

I've run really fun games with both. I'm guessing people wouldn't jump straight into the events that happen in the books exactly as they happen in the books with existing characters, they would make their own characters that fit into the setting. Maybe they want to play as talking animals or kids or fauns or whatever and they want to explore a certain country or go on a sea voyage. Obviously it would be for people that are already familiar with the material and the tone, it wouldn't be an RPG setting for a general audience for its own sake.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 25, 2025, 07:00:06 PMIt's fine to want it.  It's another thing to get it.  My point is mainly practical, in that an RPG is not a novel, and your chances of getting what you want there are even more limited than they would be elsewhere. 

Then there's the aspect that even assuming good intentions, I wouldn't trust most people to do a good job, because their own things they want to put in without understanding the source material would sour it. 

But then, I don't find your examples of Star Wars or Middle Earth very convincing either, because I'm not blown away by attempts to render those into games--and those are a lot easier properties to theoretically pull that off than some. 

I'll grant if people just want the ambience, you can do that.  It is merely that I prefer not to settle for that.

If you don't like adapted worlds, that's your preference - but Middle Earth and Star Wars have been very popular with lots of gamers, along with plenty of other adapted settings like Call of Cthulhu, Conan, etc.

I've seen lots of action and adventure and horror and more in adapted settings. If you don't like any of them, that's fine, but I don't think it has much bearing on Narnia specifically.