Greetings!

I imagine I'm being somewhat stodgy and mundane--but as I mentioned previously about diffusing Healing abilities amongst different classes, including but beyond the Cleric/Priest Character? Right. So, in my world of Thandor, I have also quite extensively developed the medical profession--so Physicians are definitely a thing. Besides having a good Doctor potentially available, there are professionally trained Medics. In our own historical times, the Medics and Physicians of the Roman Legions had developed the medical profession to a very high standard--not equalled until well into the 19th and perhaps early 20th century in our time. The Romans embraced what the earlier Persians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Carthaginians had achieved, and sharpened and improved upon all of that lore and expertise, reaching even greater heights of skill, innovation, efficiency, and achievement.

Not to forget, wise and skilled professional Herbalists can also provide some jaw-dropping forms of healing and aid to people in need. Chinese and Indian Herbalists have been doing amazing healing work for many thousands of years, tackling a huge variety of problems and ailments, from physical accidents and diseases, to battle wounds, and problems from old age or in childbirth.

So, in the world of Thandor, I have Physicians and Herbalists that serve many functions of "Healers". True, the nature of that "delivery" isn't in the form of being zapped by a rainbow ray of light immediately in battle, but then again, I generally run Thandor as a more gritty, realistic world of harsh brutality. Magical "Insta-Healing" is definitely more on the uncommon side of things occurring. Of course, I include some of that kind of uber magic, especially for bands of elite Adventurers and special forces in the military--but the larger percentage of the population is accustomed to dealing with Physicians, Medics, and Herbalists. Sometimes Witches, or an odd Mystic or talented Alchemist. I like keeping the uber magic somewhat restrained as an overall flavour principle.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2025, 06:36:20 PMGreetings!

I imagine I'm being somewhat stodgy and mundane--but as I mentioned previously about diffusing Healing abilities amongst different classes, including but beyond the Cleric/Priest Character? Right. So, in my world of Thandor, I have also quite extensively developed the medical profession--so Physicians are definitely a thing. Besides having a good Doctor potentially available, there are professionally trained Medics. In our own historical times, the Medics and Physicians of the Roman Legions had developed the medical profession to a very high standard--not equalled until well into the 19th and perhaps early 20th century in our time. The Romans embraced what the earlier Persians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Carthaginians had achieved, and sharpened and improved upon all of that lore and expertise, reaching even greater heights of skill, innovation, efficiency, and achievement.

Not to forget, wise and skilled professional Herbalists can also provide some jaw-dropping forms of healing and aid to people in need. Chinese and Indian Herbalists have been doing amazing healing work for many thousands of years, tackling a huge variety of problems and ailments, from physical accidents and diseases, to battle wounds, and problems from old age or in childbirth.

So, in the world of Thandor, I have Physicians and Herbalists that serve many functions of "Healers". True, the nature of that "delivery" isn't in the form of being zapped by a rainbow ray of light immediately in battle, but then again, I generally run Thandor as a more gritty, realistic world of harsh brutality. Magical "Insta-Healing" is definitely more on the uncommon side of things occurring. Of course, I include some of that kind of uber magic, especially for bands of elite Adventurers and special forces in the military--but the larger percentage of the population is accustomed to dealing with Physicians, Medics, and Herbalists. Sometimes Witches, or an odd Mystic or talented Alchemist. I like keeping the uber magic somewhat restrained as an overall flavour principle.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I took a similar approach in my game - there are three skills that are useful to healing.  I'm not sure how hard it would be to do this in a class based system. The physician skill can fix just about anything given time and can provide limited benefits in the short run.  An alchemist can brew potions that provide quick fixes, and can do a few things physicians can't.  Life magic is probably best for in-combat healing, but there are a lot of things that it can't do.  The most useful overall is the physician skill.  I also specifically designed the system to avoid D&D whack-a-mole healing.  If you're "wounded" then you're out of the fight for the duration even if a healer can get you mobile.

Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2025, 02:19:14 PMIndividual priest characters may or may not have specialization in Healing. Beyond that, I have diffused Healing amongst several other character types, such as Mystics, Witches, and Druids, for example. Even Alchemists can specialize in healing, and provide some interesting and useful healing abilities.

SHARK - what rules were you using for these? As I recall, your Thandor games had been using D&D 5E. Did you use official classes like the Unearthed Arcana Mystic class, homebrew classes, or something else?

For OSR and D&D I would not bother with changing the default cleric. Classes come with built in assumptions to make the game easier to play. Why can every fighter in the entire world wear plate mail? Why can every thief backstab? Why does every magic-user in the world have a spellbook? If I don't feel like using those assumptions I would likely just use a different set of rules.

Just because I was curious I looked up casting a spell on Google. I see black magic, witchcraft, Icelandic rune magic, astrology, and Wiccan spells just on page one. Having every magic-user use a spellbook makes no more or no less sense than having every cleric turn undead. But classes make it easier for many players to find a niche and a role and play the game.

Very few games/settings do polytheism sufficiently well to justify a lot of distinct classes to account for different deities. Although you can probably easily swap-in/out some features without too much trouble.

Even the idea of the "Cleric" is a bit wrapped in to Christian/monotheistic thinking to my eyes though. Historical cultures tended to be a lot more fluid in how they viewed spirituality than D&D presents, but it's very hard to break away from that at the table (and it's hard to definitively say that any setting would develop as we see in history, since the deities are usually quite present).

Quote from: Kravell on March 21, 2025, 08:31:00 PMFor OSR and D&D I would not bother with changing the default cleric. Classes come with built in assumptions to make the game easier to play. Why can every fighter in the entire world wear plate mail? Why can every thief backstab? Why does every magic-user in the world have a spellbook? If I don't feel like using those assumptions I would likely just use a different set of rules.

This is similar to what I said in the recent thread "Broad vs narrow classes - should they be specific to culture?"

It's possible to have a different set of core classes and still use the same rules otherwise, but maybe that's a bridge too far for some?

Quote from: Zelen on March 21, 2025, 10:37:48 PMEven the idea of the "Cleric" is a bit wrapped in to Christian/monotheistic thinking to my eyes though. Historical cultures tended to be a lot more fluid in how they viewed spirituality than D&D presents, but it's very hard to break away from that at the table (and it's hard to definitively say that any setting would develop as we see in history, since the deities are usually quite present).

That last bit is a key element to why I keep the divine distant and don't have any means for the living to reach the afterlife (the setting itself is already a fantasy otherworld so you don't need to plane hop to see the fantastic)... it keeps the thoughts and motivations of mere mortals more in line with human historical norms.

Ex. if the afterlife was a certainty so long as you pick a patron and stick to their tenants (a PC just visited his beloved grandfather in Celestia last month) then you're going to see a lot of people living entirely for the next life and little fear of death anywhere outside of soul corrupting or destroying supernatural effects.

Similarly, if faithful followers of evil gods also get rewarded after their fashion, many villains would also be fanatics... "the god of murder demands I kill as many as possible so I can have the joy of slaughter throughout eternity!"

Basically, if the gods are imminent and the afterlife provable then there is no faith in the setting, only devotion, threats of death do not motivate, and little in life matters except pleasing the gods.

It's still something we can conceive of, but its about as alien in perspective (unless you've been brainwashed into a cult) relative to historical experience as Eclipse Phase's post-humanism is.

Which is why I avoid it and force people in my settings to have to take such matters on faith.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 21, 2025, 07:02:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2025, 06:36:20 PMGreetings!

I imagine I'm being somewhat stodgy and mundane--but as I mentioned previously about diffusing Healing abilities amongst different classes, including but beyond the Cleric/Priest Character? Right. So, in my world of Thandor, I have also quite extensively developed the medical profession--so Physicians are definitely a thing. Besides having a good Doctor potentially available, there are professionally trained Medics. In our own historical times, the Medics and Physicians of the Roman Legions had developed the medical profession to a very high standard--not equalled until well into the 19th and perhaps early 20th century in our time. The Romans embraced what the earlier Persians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Carthaginians had achieved, and sharpened and improved upon all of that lore and expertise, reaching even greater heights of skill, innovation, efficiency, and achievement.

Not to forget, wise and skilled professional Herbalists can also provide some jaw-dropping forms of healing and aid to people in need. Chinese and Indian Herbalists have been doing amazing healing work for many thousands of years, tackling a huge variety of problems and ailments, from physical accidents and diseases, to battle wounds, and problems from old age or in childbirth.

So, in the world of Thandor, I have Physicians and Herbalists that serve many functions of "Healers". True, the nature of that "delivery" isn't in the form of being zapped by a rainbow ray of light immediately in battle, but then again, I generally run Thandor as a more gritty, realistic world of harsh brutality. Magical "Insta-Healing" is definitely more on the uncommon side of things occurring. Of course, I include some of that kind of uber magic, especially for bands of elite Adventurers and special forces in the military--but the larger percentage of the population is accustomed to dealing with Physicians, Medics, and Herbalists. Sometimes Witches, or an odd Mystic or talented Alchemist. I like keeping the uber magic somewhat restrained as an overall flavour principle.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I took a similar approach in my game - there are three skills that are useful to healing.  I'm not sure how hard it would be to do this in a class based system. The physician skill can fix just about anything given time and can provide limited benefits in the short run.  An alchemist can brew potions that provide quick fixes, and can do a few things physicians can't.  Life magic is probably best for in-combat healing, but there are a lot of things that it can't do.  The most useful overall is the physician skill.  I also specifically designed the system to avoid D&D whack-a-mole healing.  If you're "wounded" then you're out of the fight for the duration even if a healer can get you mobile.

Greetings!

Hey there, Mishihari! Yeah, my friend, brilliant minds think alike! *Laughing* I think it is great that you have developed Physician, Alchemy and such. I have found that embracing such ideas adds depth and realism to the game world as a whole, as well as really making the milieu more grounded. I especially enjoy these ideas as embracing them does a lot of the heavy lifting for avoiding the whole "Magical Healthcare" dynamic that really can develop from the basic rules, unfiltered.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on March 21, 2025, 07:29:28 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2025, 02:19:14 PMIndividual priest characters may or may not have specialization in Healing. Beyond that, I have diffused Healing amongst several other character types, such as Mystics, Witches, and Druids, for example. Even Alchemists can specialize in healing, and provide some interesting and useful healing abilities.

SHARK - what rules were you using for these? As I recall, your Thandor games had been using D&D 5E. Did you use official classes like the Unearthed Arcana Mystic class, homebrew classes, or something else?

Greetings!

Yeah, Jhkim, I have been using the ShadowDark system, which has some of the classes like Witch. Beyond that, I have developed my own classes for Shaman, Mystic, Alchemist, and more.

I have developed an extensive and detailed Skill System, as well as a Tradesman Class. Embracing Professions such as Physician, Herbalist, and Barber provide a range of solid abilities for healing and rehabilitation that is grounded and inspired by historical realism and authenticity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For all the criticism of the healbot, there's an enduring appeal to the character archetype and its play-style. It appears in numerous games across multiple genres, and there are people who like playing this kind of character. It only really works in games that have hit points.

Savage Worlds is not this game.

Quote from: tenbones on March 21, 2025, 04:12:13 PMSo while I appreciate the Savage Worlds Pathfinder Core Rules a LOT. The problem I have with them is it's a direct translation of the *assumptions* of the d20 system. So yes, it's absolutely D&D style fantasy. But it leans towards the elements I *dislike* about D&D fantasy that are purely mechanical.

i.e. they introduce Classes as Class Edges and with that they slide in all the "fat" for those classes. Clerics in Pathfinder *are* healbots, and their Deity portfolios matter a bit, but not too much.

You might appreciate some SWADE-specific feedback. I am running three Savage Worlds games where I use Savage Pathfinder to some degree.

The first is a Rise of the Runelords game that started off in 3.x when I acquired the collector's anniversary edition at a used game auction. We switched over to Savage Worlds after player attrition because I needed a game I could run with two people, and PF1e wasn't that. It's now by-the-book Savage Pathfinder, and the closest they have to a cleric is a rogue with Arcane Background (Miracles) and Arcane Trickster. I appreciate that these prestige classes actually work in Savage Worlds, because they were conceptually cool but a lot of multiclass concepts like that suck on the 3.x chassis.

The second is a pirate campaign where I started with the PF1 Skull & Shackles adventure path and started bolting on 50 Fathoms to facilitate the whole "being pirates" schtick. One of my players found out Golarion had a goddess devoted to piracy, and then I received much excitement about her next character. Then I switched to Savage Worlds on her. She started off making a cleric. Then, before she finished, she asked me if she could be an oracle instead, and just call herself a cleric, because she thought the cleric edge was kind of boring, while the oracle edge was exciting. She has Arcane Background (Miracles), she activates powers with Faith, can't that be a cleric? Since I was trying to get the concept of trappings across to her, I just called this a win and started the game.

The cleric edge is rooted in trying to replicate the cleric class from Pathfinder, which is kind of but not exactly the cleric from earlier editions of D&D. The evolution through systems is important, though. The domains in 3.x are an attempt to recreate the specialty priests of 2nd edition after a fashion. It's not exactly that, because they're trying to do more things simultaneously than just the specialty priests, but the specialty priests are a part of that. The cleric maintains turn undead because zombies and skeletons are a staple of D&D, but by the time you get to 3rd edition you're starting to see a lot of adventures that just don't have undead. Pathfinder does channel energy instead, which achieves the same result when used against undead, but allows you to do something else with it in a game that lacks these monsters.

When you move to Savage Worlds, channel energy has the same problem that the original turn undead ability has - it's too narrow in scope. It's very powerful, but most wounds are dealt with through bennies.

This brings me to my third game. Last year I had the big brain idea that I was going to run the original Dragonlance modules for the 40th anniversary, but I would use Savage Worlds instead of AD&D. The 1E cleric doesn't have channel energy, it has turn undead. I can model that with the Destroy Undead edge, but this channel energy feature the cleric has is something that didn't exist in 1984. I treated this feature as an edge, so when I took it away, I gave the cleric a new edge in its place. I had the Fantasy Companion at this time, and I liked how the arcane backgrounds in that book gave more powers/spells, so to compensate for taking away channel energy, I gave the cleric two extra spells - effectively the New Powers edge. I started them with Healing + 4 powers, and made them take two from their domain. I did something similar with the Wizard of High Sorcery. The Savage Pathfinder wizard has a bunch of shit that didn't exist in AD&D, so I stripped that out and gave them more spells to compensate.

The Dragonlance cleric needs to have Healing, because that's a big thing in-world. True healing hasn't existed since the Cataclysm when the gods left. Regardless of the god you worship, the ability to wield magical healing is the mark of a true cleric.

The pirate "cleric" doesn't have the Healing power. She didn't have room for it. Nothing prevented her from taking it, she just didn't have it.

You sound like you're trying to make Savage Forgotten Realms. It seems to me to fly in the face of the novelization as well as the general evolution and presentation of those 80s and 90s settings for clerics to lack healing. Cure Light Wounds was the thing that clerics did. However, just because a cleric could cast the spell doesn't mean they did cast it. After looking through Forgotten Realms Adventures, I do see that Beshaba and Gond lack even minor access to the healing sphere, but they're the only two in the entire Faerunian pantheon. Considering gods like Auril, Deneir, Leira, and Umberlee (lesser deities and demigods with unrelated portfolios) grant healing - to say nothing of gods like Bane, Cyric, and Shar - that just seems "off" to me.

To wrap this up, I'm not married to the notion that a cleric has to have healing magic. Obviously, since I have a cleric in one of my games who lacks said magic. If you're going to call this a faithful Savage conversion of Forgotten Realms, the cleric has to at least be able to select the power, but I don't think they should automatically get it. If you were trying to sell me on Savage Talislanta, I'd be more willing to buy into certain clerics just not having access to the Healing power because I don't know enough about Talislanta to have conflicting expectations.

To differentiate the clerics within the Forgotten Realms, instead of giving them all Healing + 2 powers, I would give them a deity-appropriate power regardless of rank requirement as that automatic power. For example, all clerics of Myrkul would have Zombie even though it's a veteran rank power. Clerics of Leira would obviously have Illusion. Mielikki would grant something like Beast Friend. Sune is going to grant Empathy. Several gods might grant the same power, but with their own specific trappings. This would let you have a cleric of Lathander who looks in all respects like a traditional cleric, but Myrkul's clerics are practically indistinguishable from necromancers, Leira's clerics end up being illusionists who roll Faith instead of Spellcasting, and Sune's clerics probably do have Healing but otherwise mostly look like bards.

I would have it so Clerics are massive specialists of what their god specializes in, extending to non-divine magic skills. A Cleric of the god of martial arts is a master martial artist that can:

- copy techniques just by looking at them and perform them better
- invent new techniques on the fly
- act out of instinct
- predict enemy moves before the enemy makes them happen and perfectly guide them to where they want (instinctively) to attack best

However, this role has limitations. You must do what your god wants. At all times. If you don't, your superhuman martial arts skill goes away.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 20, 2025, 08:27:20 PMGiven that I think the cleric class first went off the rails when it went from 'wonder-worker/Knight Templar/van Helsing' combo to 'priest of polytheistic gods,' that I also think 3E's removal of specialty priests was probably part of their whole "D&D for the sake of D&D" misstep, and that Savage Worlds doesn't need magical healing and undead turning as much as any form of D&D (whether Old School or WotC) does, I'd say 'go for it.'

  I am not so certain I agree with the magical healing part for Savage Worlds in a "D&D like setting" I find the magical healing can be MORE important given how often it can be used and the fact raises can remove multiple wounds.  My group certainly misses the Cleric the most in any delves if a character should be missing.  The turning undead part I can not say as it has not come up as yet, but with the gang up rules, a swarm of undead can be a real problem for an otherwise strong group of heroes. 

  I think the undead turning though is far easier to lose than the healing, but I was a bit surprised as to how good magical healing is in SW even when compared to D&D and how it can keep the party moving down in the dungeon or make or break some combat encounters.

Given your assumptions,  I think the answer is trappings, carefully curated power lists and custom modifiers/limitations.  I am a SWADE disciple as well, but I think a little bit was lost with SWEX pertaining to trappings. 

In my opinion, Savage Pathfinder is trash and isn't what you want to reference. It is trying to hard to bring in Pathfinder players which is a detriment to what is possible with the Savage Worlds system. 

The Fantasy Companion is an ok start, but I don't think the domains they present really get to what you want and other settings do it better. For each Specialty Priest, the easy thing to do would be to swap out the healing and rebuke (rebuke might now be in the FC, it might be unique to Rifts and Deadlands?) powers for something else for each priest but I think you'll still run into quite a bit of overlap. 

I would go further and customize an Arcane Background Edge to represent each specialty.  Powers can still overlap, but maybe each priest gets a unique modifiers or way to use the Faith skill that represents their specialty.  Deadlands does an excellent job of this with the various Faith AB's and the SciFi Companion provides the Chaplain and Shepherd which may give you some ideas. 

Taking the Knight Hospitaller example, off the tope of my head I would go with something like the Troubadour Edge as part of the AB, but instead of the Bard trope of linking it to Perform, link it to Faith.  Now you have someone who inspires based on their conviction.

Sometimes limiting other archetypes in what trappings they can use can also make a big difference. Don't let the wizard do stuff that can outshine your cleric.  For example, limiting the holy and and true daylight trapping to AB: Faith users in Savage Rifts gives the Mystic a very important role to play separate from the Ley Line Walker. 

Quote from: Corolinth on March 22, 2025, 07:45:15 PMYou sound like you're trying to make Savage Forgotten Realms. It seems to me to fly in the face of the novelization as well as the general evolution and presentation of those 80s and 90s settings for clerics to lack healing. Cure Light Wounds was the thing that clerics did. However, just because a cleric could cast the spell doesn't mean they did cast it. After looking through Forgotten Realms Adventures, I do see that Beshaba and Gond lack even minor access to the healing sphere, but they're the only two in the entire Faerunian pantheon. Considering gods like Auril, Deneir, Leira, and Umberlee (lesser deities and demigods with unrelated portfolios) grant healing - to say nothing of gods like Bane, Cyric, and Shar - that just seems "off" to me.

To wrap this up, I'm not married to the notion that a cleric has to have healing magic. Obviously, since I have a cleric in one of my games who lacks said magic. If you're going to call this a faithful Savage conversion of Forgotten Realms, the cleric has to at least be able to select the power, but I don't think they should automatically get it. If you were trying to sell me on Savage Talislanta, I'd be more willing to buy into certain clerics just not having access to the Healing power because I don't know enough about Talislanta to have conflicting expectations.

To differentiate the clerics within the Forgotten Realms, instead of giving them all Healing + 2 powers, I would give them a deity-appropriate power regardless of rank requirement as that automatic power. For example, all clerics of Myrkul would have Zombie even though it's a veteran rank power. Clerics of Leira would obviously have Illusion. Mielikki would grant something like Beast Friend. Sune is going to grant Empathy. Several gods might grant the same power, but with their own specific trappings. This would let you have a cleric of Lathander who looks in all respects like a traditional cleric, but Myrkul's clerics are practically indistinguishable from necromancers, Leira's clerics end up being illusionists who roll Faith instead of Spellcasting, and Sune's clerics probably do have Healing but otherwise mostly look like bards.

This is almost exactly what I'm doing. Healing as a specific power is nested within specific Domains (Sun, Nature, Glory and Protection), so if a deity doesn't have those Domains, his Clerics don't have access to it. And it becomes a choice even within those Domains as well.

I'm also making the Turn/Destroy/Command Undead choice as well. For the exact reasons you cited, I came to those same conclusions. Where I feel the deity doesn't have an express reason to Turn/Command undead, I give the Cleric an option. Or a tradeoff - for instance I give Priests of Oghma, Mystra the choice of "Forbidden Lore" which lets them Turn/Destroy Extra Planar creatures in the same vein as Undead - but they have to take the Dread Hindrance (all failed Fear checks get a +2 to the results table). Again, they don't have to take it, it's an option that is intended to support the creed and dogmas of the faith. Other deities grant other options.

Since this is an interim-pass at my conversion from Savage Pathfinder, I'm effectively making Savage Forgotten Realms. But I also plan on using the same structure in my own setting I'm planning on publishing - which will also have some mechanics I'm developing for in-setting features that are more advanced than the starting PC chargen. Think of them like Seasoned Rank Iconic Frameworks.

Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on March 24, 2025, 03:09:44 PMGiven your assumptions,  I think the answer is trappings, carefully curated power lists and custom modifiers/limitations.  I am a SWADE disciple as well, but I think a little bit was lost with SWEX pertaining to trappings.

100% agreement here. I have been considering going back to the Deluxe Trappings rules. But my hands are full right now.

Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on March 24, 2025, 03:09:44 PMIn my opinion, Savage Pathfinder is trash and isn't what you want to reference. It is trying to hard to bring in Pathfinder players which is a detriment to what is possible with the Savage Worlds system.

I have a bit to say about this. TL/DR You're correct.

I know I've been on this very forum for *years* (since SW Deluxe Edition) opining that I felt Savage Worlds could and should be used for D&D-fantasy. The skepticism had been far more than I would have predicted, even my own players. In my group, Shaintar definitely moved the needle. But Beasts and Barbarians *definitely* won them over. Then SWADE dropped... and now it meant converting the conversions. So I just kinda waited, then they announced Savage Pathfinder.

Now all of a sudden my players are interested - because we played Pathfinder/3.x pushing that system to brutal levels. But the *fact* that Pathfinder was now going to be represented in Savage Worlds, this magically legitimized my claims that Savage Worlds could do D&D faithfully.

Well... it always could. But Savage Worlds Pathfinder does *Pathfinder* faithfully... warts and all. And that's by intention, as you mentioned above, to get modern D&D players into the SWADE ecosystem. My dislike for Pathfinder has not waned. And in SWADE form, the things I dislike are there, just minus the wonkiness of d20. Rather, they codified the silly shit of Pathfinder-specific flavor of 3.x design into SWADE which is just unnecessary.

Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on March 24, 2025, 03:09:44 PMThe Fantasy Companion is an ok start, but I don't think the domains they present really get to what you want and other settings do it better. For each Specialty Priest, the easy thing to do would be to swap out the healing and rebuke (rebuke might now be in the FC, it might be unique to Rifts and Deadlands?) powers for something else for each priest but I think you'll still run into quite a bit of overlap.

Yep. Done and done.

Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on March 24, 2025, 03:09:44 PMI would go further and customize an Arcane Background Edge to represent each specialty.  Powers can still overlap, but maybe each priest gets a unique modifiers or way to use the Faith skill that represents their specialty.  Deadlands does an excellent job of this with the various Faith AB's and the SciFi Companion provides the Chaplain and Shepherd which may give you some ideas. 

Taking the Knight Hospitaller example, off the tope of my head I would go with something like the Troubadour Edge as part of the AB, but instead of the Bard trope of linking it to Perform, link it to Faith.  Now you have someone who inspires based on their conviction.

Sometimes limiting other archetypes in what trappings they can use can also make a big difference. Don't let the wizard do stuff that can outshine your cleric.  For example, limiting the holy and and true daylight trapping to AB: Faith users in Savage Rifts gives the Mystic a very important role to play separate from the Ley Line Walker. 

LOL my god, I swear you sound like one of my players (my rules guy). We were literally having this discussion Saturday night. So my longterm goal is very similar to this. We need a core stripped down set of Fantasy rules that are SWADE at the core, but restructuring "classes" as packages in-line with standard 1e/2e conventions, but with more setting-specific options for not just caster-classes, but for non-casters as well.

I'm in total agreement with you on Deadlands and Sci-Fi companion's handling of Arcane Backgrounds. What I want to avoid is the assumption of non-tradeoff benefits, where being a "mystic Fighter" is better mechanically than a regular "Fighter" without any context. But that's a setting conceit. So I'm very confident I can pull that off.

When I'm done with my Savage Forgotten Realms project, I'm going to have my layout person pretty it up, and we'll hand it out for freeeeeee. This will be a warmup for things to come. We're just going through the production ropes now and figuring out what works best for us before we start doing kickstarters and the rest. We plan on doing some adventures and stuff once we move on to our own property which is in the works now. I figured since I run a lot of Realms, this would be a good place to start for my own personal use as well as fun "practice" run for our production line, while giving people out there some benefit too.