Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 16, 2025, 06:15:48 PMWe had the chance, we like Classic Traveller, so... why not? I mean, what is the point of having a games company if you can't do the stuff you find cool?

Too true!!!

Quote from: Socratic-DM on March 16, 2025, 03:18:46 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 16, 2025, 12:07:17 PMWell, the answer to all of your sandwich chart categories in this case is a resounding "yes". Although your category 2 and 3 sound like the same thing. I'm assuming echosystem is a typo.

But you think all four criteria must be in play for a gameline to be considered alive?

Nope! I said that Book 9: Pirates individually satisfies all four of your separate criteria (even though it is really just three). So by the standards you have presented, Classic Traveller is no longer a dead game.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on March 16, 2025, 03:18:46 PMI guess the followup question. is your enjoyment of a game dependent in any way on a game being "alive"?

No. Why should it?

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 16, 2025, 09:47:09 PMNo. Why should it?

It shouldn't, which is good.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 16, 2025, 06:15:48 PMThe latter, really - at least, initially.

We had the chance, we like Classic Traveller, so... why not? I mean, what is the point of having a games company if you can't do the stuff you find cool?

The response has been somewhat more powerful than we had expected though. Maybe we will try a Supplement?

That's the sort of answer I wish more game companies would have.

Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on March 14, 2025, 04:21:03 PMHarder than you'd think, because I saw paid games of Thirsty Sword Lesbians as recently as a year ago.

The cost is realizing you spent good money to play a game about gay people.  Which isn't inherently bad or anything, but it's like spending good money to pay a game about left-handed people. 

(I look forward to the point in time when Fred Hicks is apologizing for TSL as "homophobic and problematic".)

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 14, 2025, 03:19:21 PMSo my question is: Can a dead game be brought back to life if new material for it is being published? Is that possible or are new publications considered gaming undead? A zombie game that shambles on for the grognards who still play Classic Traveller?

I'd argue Warhammer FRP fits the bill, having "died" with 3ed (in the sense that 3ed was a mechanically distinct and different game from 1ed or 2ed) and then coming back with a new company.  The Warhammer 40,000 RPG did similar things, but I'm not sure you can call it the same game since even though it's using the old system, it's no longer called Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/etc.

Hunter the Reckoning also likely fits, as it died out until recently revisited.

I can't think of any others.  Maybe Ars Magica sometime before/after 3ed?  Cyberpunk 2020? 

I guess it depends on whether you consider a game that is no longer supported to be equivalent to a dead game. Traveller Classic has its advocates and I've played it within the last few years, and would not consider it dead for that reason....and now apparently I can't consider it unsupported, either.

Quote from: Brad on March 17, 2025, 03:03:18 PMThat's the sort of answer I wish more game companies would have.

Eh, they are out there.

We are fortunate because Traveller is large enough that we can do these pet projects without risking the bank. Sometimes they just bimble along and that is fine, other times they take off - our Victory at Sea game always springs to mind for that, always figured we would just sell a few hundred copies in the first six months. Now on its second edition with it own line of miniatures and three video games.

A lot of other publishers have different goals though, and some are just desperately trying to survive. Can't really fault them for that.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 18, 2025, 05:22:10 AMA lot of other publishers have different goals though, and some are just desperately trying to survive. Can't really fault them for that.

If a games company isn't focused on just making a cool, fun game then they are in the wrong business.  Like movies, music, or novels, RPGs are a non-essential entertainment product. 

Quote from: BadApple on March 18, 2025, 06:44:23 AMIf a games company isn't focused on just making a cool, fun game then they are in the wrong business.  Like movies, music, or novels, RPGs are a non-essential entertainment product. 

That's the ideal, certainly. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world for creators, so other factors can put pressure on publishers. We have been very lucky in that regard, and the things we find cool seem to be the same that enough other people find cool for us to carry on

A game is never dead, as long as it's being played.

Is there even such a thing as a dead game any more?  Eden Studios officially went defunct in 2017 but all of their stuff is available on DTRPG right now.  West End Games has been gone for a while but versions of the D6 system are still made by Nocturnal Media and Magnetic Press.  White Wolf is long defunct but a ton of their old WoD stuff is still available as well as newer versions by successor publishers.  Even their old D20 fantasy stuff is still available.   

Quote from: blackstone on March 18, 2025, 07:58:22 AMA game is never dead, as long as it's being played.

Technically true. But the goal should be for it to be played by as many people as possible, so that it can get more content.

As a player your point is well served. But god forbid if your GM disappears... then that game goes poof and thus... the game marches one step closer to that eternal line of regression, to pop up only when that lone GM appears somewhere else.

That is not dead which can eternal lie

Quote from: BadApple on March 14, 2025, 04:27:40 PMFrom my point of view, a game lives or dies at the table. 

There's a lot of truth to this. Occasionally a system will actually be forgotten, and marketing is important yet can be overdone, but evolution certainly impacts this hobby like anything. Games people enjoy playing are bought, copied, played, archived, and remembered. I think the rarest cases of comebacks are systems never actually given a chance to be experienced to ultimately be remembered in the first place. A system needs a theme or setting that people all enjoy interacting and playing inside of first and foremost, then the system needs to mechanically reinforce what it promises to be and do. There's hundreds of forgotten and half-baked systems and really the wheel only needs to be completely reinvented if the terrain isn't suitable, and even then-- if it doesn't look or function enough like a regular wheel to at least be recognizable as such, it's going to be really hard to get people onboard. From what we know about the Bell Curve, I don't believe that statistically it's going to be likely that anybody puts together a group of extremely intelligent people who all want to role-play inside a certain crunchy setting without a lot of searching and planning. Systems like EABA have a ton of thought put into them, but I'm not sure I've even ever finished reading the quick-start, which also goes to show that crunch and detail needs to be paired with a reason for it and/or trademarked entities or properties that interest people enough to want the crunch. PBTA games have exploded in popularity due to the low entry barrier, which allows for finding more players, learning the rules easier, but also does nothing to gatekeep out those who wish to monetize every aspect or push completely unrelated agendas with it, sometimes even luring in people who don't actually want to role-play ironically. And mechanically, obviously more narrative games can be difficult to actually keep going for large campaigns and it's easy to just want to try a new one every time, sort of like 'fast fashion', but again there's pros and cons there.