Quote from: Fheredin on March 11, 2025, 09:50:37 PMExamples, please?

over 14k in innovative materials coming out of the OSR

Go nuts.

Quote from: BadApple on March 11, 2025, 10:18:20 AMOSR doesn't do a good job of keeping low level threats relevant.  A Goblin Slayer campaign would get kind of silly after a few  level-ups.

I don't think so. You can scale it up by adding in things like ogres, hobgoblins, trolls, goblin champions/lords/kings.

Just like in the anime and manga.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2025, 02:58:43 PMThere's a couple of types of play that I haven't seen done well in an OSR game.  The key word here is "well;" I've seen games have done a bit with these, but in a very cursory manner.  I'll admit up front that my experience with OSR is very limited, so I'd be interested in hearing about any counterexample.
    Survival play like journey through Mirkwood or Oregon Trail
    Movement challenges like those found in the Tomb Raider and Uncharted video games
    Stealth, as done in video games like Tenchu

The OSR isn't meant to emulate video games. It's meant to emulate the physical world to a certain degree.

Quote from: blackstone on March 18, 2025, 02:17:59 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2025, 02:58:43 PMThere's a couple of types of play that I haven't seen done well in an OSR game.  The key word here is "well;" I've seen games have done a bit with these, but in a very cursory manner.  I'll admit up front that my experience with OSR is very limited, so I'd be interested in hearing about any counterexample.
    Survival play like journey through Mirkwood or Oregon Trail
    Movement challenges like those found in the Tomb Raider and Uncharted video games
    Stealth, as done in video games like Tenchu

The OSR isn't meant to emulate video games. It's meant to emulate the physical world to a certain degree.

Those are all things that are done in real life.  Those video games examples are just a useful shorthand for a type of experience.  I suppose for those insufficiently cultured I should have added, 1)  Wilderness play focused on ensuring you have enough food, water, heat etc to not die, 2)  Play focused on moving through a difficult environment with climbing, parkour, swimming, etc, and 3) Play focused on keeping the enemy unaware of your presence.  I've not seen any D&D style rules with enough depth and detail to make any of these interesting.

Quote from: blackstone on March 18, 2025, 02:03:45 PM

Quote from: BadApple on March 11, 2025, 10:18:20 AMOSR doesn't do a good job of keeping low level threats relevant.  A Goblin Slayer campaign would get kind of silly after a few  level-ups.

I don't think so. You can scale it up by adding in things like ogres, hobgoblins, trolls, goblin champions/lords/kings.

Just like in the anime and manga.

And add a few complete surprise enemies, that the players won't recognize, even if they are familiar with traditional fantasy foes.  Something with tentacles.  Something that has unique abilities.  Something that hides in darkness.  Something that can teleport.  Just keep them close to being level appropriate.

I find the OSR's focus on player skill over character sheet doesn't fit so well for alien realities like that seen in Homestuck or Glorantha, where the basic laws of physics are different from our own. For instance, in the first, 'Narrative relevance' is a stat that can be taken or gived to others. One entire class of characters is doomed to narrative irrelevance simply because of this. Another class can steal narrative relevance from others, turning them into side characters. This is not something you'd know without doing an extensive dive.

Quote from: Man at Arms on March 19, 2025, 12:23:59 AM

Quote from: blackstone on March 18, 2025, 02:03:45 PM

Quote from: BadApple on March 11, 2025, 10:18:20 AMOSR doesn't do a good job of keeping low level threats relevant.  A Goblin Slayer campaign would get kind of silly after a few  level-ups.

I don't think so. You can scale it up by adding in things like ogres, hobgoblins, trolls, goblin champions/lords/kings.

Just like in the anime and manga.

And add a few complete surprise enemies, that the players won't recognize, even if they are familiar with traditional fantasy foes.  Something with tentacles.  Something that has unique abilities.  Something that hides in darkness.  Something that can teleport.  Just keep them close to being level appropriate.

Like the Chaos Space Marine goblin slayer fights in one of the prequel manga

Quote from: Mishihari on March 18, 2025, 02:59:46 PMI suppose for those insufficiently cultured

You lost me right there. Way to go with the underhanded insult.

Quote from: blackstone on March 19, 2025, 07:46:14 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 18, 2025, 02:59:46 PMI suppose for those insufficiently cultured

You lost me right there. Way to go with the underhanded insult.

Video games as culture?  That was humor, not an insult.  Lighten up man.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 19, 2025, 10:29:59 AM

Quote from: blackstone on March 19, 2025, 07:46:14 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 18, 2025, 02:59:46 PMI suppose for those insufficiently cultured

You lost me right there. Way to go with the underhanded insult.

Video games as culture?  That was humor, not an insult.  Lighten up man.

Ok, very well..

To answer your question: everything you've mentioned can be found in the 1st ed DMG, the Wilderness Survival Guide, the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. I'd check those to see if they fulfil your needs.

If not, just make something up. As long as you are fair and consistent with your group, it's not a problem.

Quote from: blackstone on March 18, 2025, 02:03:45 PM

Quote from: BadApple on March 11, 2025, 10:18:20 AMOSR doesn't do a good job of keeping low level threats relevant.  A Goblin Slayer campaign would get kind of silly after a few  level-ups.

I don't think so. You can scale it up by adding in things like ogres, hobgoblins, trolls, goblin champions/lords/kings.

Just like in the anime and manga.

That's a little beside the point. Adding in higher level threats only keeps low level threats relevant by making them add-ons to another monster.

As a disclaimer, I've only read the Goblin Slayer manga, so everything that follows it based on that.

The "point" Goblin Slayer is making, if you can call it that, is that even a base goblin can kill an experienced adventurer, under the right circumstances. That "under the right circumstances" is a big qualifier. The manga is actually very clear that in a straight fight, a lone goblin isn't much of a threat even to a rookie adventurer. Experienced adventurers get killed by goblins because they get complacent. They get tricked, trapped or ambushed. This could involve traps or poison, which work fine in OSR with the save-or-die rules, but let's stick with the ambush version:

When this is shown in the manga, there's a consistent way it's often represented: You get a moment of realization, where the adventurer sees their mistake, and then a "critical hit", usually either a stab to the abdomen or a bash on the head. The adventurer is stunned or otherwise disabled, and they get swarmed by goblins as the shot cuts away from them.

Can OSR games do this? Well, the answer is "some of them". There's three factors in play, 1) the surprise attack, 2) the "critical hit", and 3) the swarm. For example, Dolmenwood has no flanking or critical hit rules, and surprise does nothing except give you a free round to attack. This scenario really can't play out in that game, unless the adventurer is already at low health or the goblin has accesss to the backstab ability. On the other hand, Tales of Argosa has trauma rules, so if the goblin rolls a 19 on the attack and then a good roll on the trauma table, that could impose a status ailment (stunned or otherwise), which combined with its rules for outnumbering enemies, would make the subsequent swarm attack a death sentence for the adventurer.

I'm not sure that's actually what BadApple is thinking of though. I think what he's getting at is more the "puncher's chance", the idea that no matter how unskilled the attacker, there's always a chance that they could take you out in a single lucky shot. IME very few RPGs do that, and it's largely just a gameplay consideration. RPG combat is swingy and random enough as is. I can only think of a few games where there's a significant chance of a lucky shot taking an experienced character from full health to dead in one go.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 19, 2025, 11:06:46 AM...

I'm not sure that's actually what BadApple is thinking of though. I think what he's getting at is more the "puncher's chance", the idea that no matter how unskilled the attacker, there's always a chance that they could take you out in a single lucky shot. IME very few RPGs do that, and it's largely just a gameplay consideration. RPG combat is swingy and random enough as is. I can only think of a few games where there's a significant chance of a lucky shot taking an experienced character from full health to dead in one go.

At least most of the OSR games handle that part only indirectly, by the degrading of hit points.  Which is sitting with a foot in both camps, one for swingy and random and the other in the gameplay hard to kill that way. 

Because you are correct, if you want to consider both gameplay and vibe at the same time, then there has to be some kind of compromise.  Now that we've agreed that it's for sale, it only remains to negotiate the price.  Some games negotiate it trying unabashedly to set a middle ground.  Others try to cover up the facts with pretense.

Personally, I think the old school technique of hit points being a buffer, however one that can realistically get ground down, is one of the better ways to handle the issue.  Of course, the infamous "save or die" stakes out another piece of territory.  You can't be killed in a single shot, absent save or die.  You can be ground down to the point that a single shot will take you out.  When you start, you've got no real buffer. The buffer grows as you do.

Most games that use pretense for this also assume the GM is going to fudge things.  So we all pretend that the system is deadly, but if the GM doesn't want your character to die from the swingy combat, then you don't.  I get why some players like that, but I don't find it very appealing.

Quote from: blackstone on March 19, 2025, 10:56:49 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 19, 2025, 10:29:59 AM

Quote from: blackstone on March 19, 2025, 07:46:14 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 18, 2025, 02:59:46 PMI suppose for those insufficiently cultured

You lost me right there. Way to go with the underhanded insult.

Video games as culture?  That was humor, not an insult.  Lighten up man.

Ok, very well..

To answer your question: everything you've mentioned can be found in the 1st ed DMG, the Wilderness Survival Guide, the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. I'd check those to see if they fulfil your needs.

If not, just make something up. As long as you are fair and consistent with your group, it's not a problem.

I tried to use the WSG back in the day.  The ideas were good but it was boring to use in play.  Same for the rest.  I'd like games where survival, stealth, and movement challenges can have as great a focus as combat.  The systems I've seen are too simplistic to spend any time with and have the play be interesting.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 19, 2025, 11:17:35 AMPersonally, I think the old school technique of hit points being a buffer, however one that can realistically get ground down, is one of the better ways to handle the issue.  Of course, the infamous "save or die" stakes out another piece of territory.  You can't be killed in a single shot, absent save or die.  You can be ground down to the point that a single shot will take you out.  When you start, you've got no real buffer. The buffer grows as you do.

In my experience, a sweet spot is possible where the HP buffer (before being ground down) still allows a single really good shot to take you out -- with an increasing chance of being taken out by a lesser single shot as the buffer is whittled away. All without "save or die" mechanics. It's just a matter of finding the right balance between the system's swinginess and the characters' HP totals.

Quote from: Zalman on March 19, 2025, 11:42:19 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 19, 2025, 11:17:35 AMPersonally, I think the old school technique of hit points being a buffer, however one that can realistically get ground down, is one of the better ways to handle the issue.  Of course, the infamous "save or die" stakes out another piece of territory.  You can't be killed in a single shot, absent save or die.  You can be ground down to the point that a single shot will take you out.  When you start, you've got no real buffer. The buffer grows as you do.

In my experience, a sweet spot is possible where the HP buffer (before being ground down) still allows a single really good shot to take you out -- with an increasing chance of being taken out by a lesser single shot as the buffer is whittled away. All without "save or die" mechanics. It's just a matter of finding the right balance between the system's swinginess and the characters' HP totals.

I agree.  It's even easier if you have a limited Wounds/HP distinction, where critical hits or the like do some direct damage to wounds.  That's what I use in place of save or die.  Still, most characters that die do so because the hit points got whittled down first, which is system working as designed in my case.  Of course, with a sweet spot, the scaling of power matters too.  I find that it works better for me to maintain a long sweet spot if hit points and damage start at higher numbers than B/X or AD&D, but scale slower.  That is, a very high level character has something like 4 times the total "health" of a low level one, not x10 or more.

Strangely enough, removing the equivalent of the Con bonus to hit points helped a lot, in getting this to work.