Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2025, 03:40:56 PMBut overall the changes from 1e to 2e were probably the least extreme between any of the other editions.

 1E to 2E, 3E to 3.5, and 5E 2014 to 5E 2024 are the ones that would qualify as what the rest of the industry calls "edition changes." OD&D to AD&D 1E, 2E to 3E, 3.5E to 4E, and 4E to 5E are closer to "total redesigns" or "completely new games," although Gygax is the only one to admit/claim that for his changeover, for numerous reasons.

Incidentally, has anyone actually run/played an Orcs of Thar campaign? Seems like it could be fun.

Quote from: Ombre29 on February 09, 2025, 04:12:04 AMI think all this inclusive stuff deprive games from all fun (like species instead of races : so no more half-elf, half-orcs ?)

Might even be the intention.

Quote from: Tristan on February 09, 2025, 03:43:45 PMa 'tough' has a CR of 1/2  it doesn't have any extra orcy abilities.  A tough boss has a CR of 4.

A tough is a tough, just depends on the costume its wearing.

Then it's just a human with a mask on.

Sargon of Akkad has a really good take on this topic:

With that being said, the removal of orcs as a monster has removed a key element from D&D 5e: a race of protagonists. From the orc point of view, their way of life is justified by this bit of lore from Dragon Magazine Vol III, originally from Dragon issue 62 (note this isn't official lore, but a lore to be used that fits within the game)



Now, I don't know about you, but that's a hell of a compelling tale to justify the orcs behavior. They as a race that feel betrayed and will continue to wage war against all other goodly races, until all are all killed.

I'm sorry, but this is much more compelling than having orcs "just like us".

That's boring.

Having orcs, goblins, gnolls, etc. out there in the wilds, not knowing where they may be, promotes tension and a sense of fear/dread to motivate players and their characters to eliminate them.

Orcs are the imminent threat, just like zombies in the Walking Dead.

Now before you say, "well, the humans who aren't infected are sometimes worse than the zombies." Maybe. But you're missing the point. The uninfected are still human. Zombies are not human anymore. They can't be reasoned with. They can't be bought off, or shamed, or feel.

Orcs, for the most part, should be treated the same way. But instead of being a mindless horde of zombies, they are motivated by a religious fervor by Grummsh, their god, to eliminate all good races of the world, which quite frankly might be worse that the aforementioned zombies.

Orcs don't care about you. They want to kill you, take you stuff, and piss upon your grave...and you family's grave...and the family next door...you get the idea.

It's a matter of survival.

That's why orcs are evil. That's why they're to be eliminated. It's either you or them. No parlay. No quarter. It's kill or be killed.

Remember what King Theodin said: "How can we fight such reckless hate?"

What was Aragon's answer? He didn't say parlay, or wave the white flag of truce. These were orcs and uruk-hai they were facing. He KNEW the threat. There was no option but to...

"Ride out with me! Ride out and face them!"

Damn right you will. Men, hard as steel by war, facing orcs countless times, know the truth.

A force of orcs, filled with evil and "reckless hate" are upon you.

"When you put your hand in a pile goo that used to be your best buddy's face!...You'll know what to do."

Quote from: yosemitemike on February 10, 2025, 02:35:57 AM

Quote from: Tristan on February 09, 2025, 03:43:45 PMa 'tough' has a CR of 1/2  it doesn't have any extra orcy abilities.  A tough boss has a CR of 4.

A tough is a tough, just depends on the costume its wearing.

Then it's just a human with a mask on.

And what were the orcs in prior editions of D&D really? 1 HD humanoids with darkvision... as distinguished from humans (1 HD humanoids without darkvision) or goblins (1D-1 HD humanoids with darkvision)?

Most of the humanoids, even the monstrous ones, in D&D aren't statistically much more than humans in masks. They may have different cultures, but so would a human culture based on Scandinavia or the Eastern Steppes or the Middle East relative to Western Europe in the medieval period.

I get the "they changed it, so now it sucks" impulse, but even at the height of racial differences (3e) the difference between a no-name orc and a no-name human warrior was a couple points of strength for the orc, a couple points of intelligence and charisma for the human, nightvision for the orc and a few more skill points for the human.

Why do those need two entirely different statblocks really? Is a GM incapable a remembering that orcs can see in the dark and might use more direct tactics than a human tough will without a completely different stat block?

Now, if this still 4E where humanoids got multiple stat blocks each tailored to default cultural trends and racial traits (ex. kobolds having slingers that slug debilitating pots of goo at enemies combined with skirmishers who could shift every round and had bonuses for flanking) then maybe I'd have more of an issue with orcs being relegated to generic humanoid NPC profiles.

But it's not. In terms of mechanical weight "orc" in 5.5e means about as much as it did in the 1e days... when the important details weren't the fairly generic 1HD humanoid stat block, but the bits on organization (i.e. they organize into tribes of XdY individuals. The tribe will have a Z level chief and a AA level shaman) and the sort of equipment and tactics they'd use.

The 5e material (even before the 2024 version) in general doesn't care about any of that. You get maybe a page of generic lore, a generic statblock and have to either make up or use a module for anything else.

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 10:33:29 AMNow, I don't know about you, but that's a hell of a compelling tale to justify the orcs behavior. They as a race that feel betrayed and will continue to wage war against all other goodly races, until all are all killed.

I'm sorry, but this is much more compelling than having orcs "just like us".

You still have that, and it's hardly unique to orcs to feel like they've been slighted and oppressed and want to lash out at all that keep them down. Look hard enough, and you might see parallels with some human groups, so they really can be 'just like us' and yet have the background you like.

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 10, 2025, 11:43:33 AM

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 10:33:29 AMNow, I don't know about you, but that's a hell of a compelling tale to justify the orcs behavior. They as a race that feel betrayed and will continue to wage war against all other goodly races, until all are all killed.

I'm sorry, but this is much more compelling than having orcs "just like us".

You still have that, and it's hardly unique to orcs to feel like they've been slighted and oppressed and want to lash out at all that keep them down. Look hard enough, and you might see parallels with some human groups, so they really can be 'just like us' and yet have the background you like.

Sure, there might be some human groups that manifest in a similar way. The Easterlings themselves allied with Sauron and were counted along with orcs in their ranks.

Some. That's the key word.

Orcs, as a RACE, either depicted by Tolkien or within D&D (where it was influenced heavily by Tolkien's Orcs) are entirely warlike, without remorse or compassion.

Their whole way of thinking is literally alien to us right down to the core.

Hence why you don't see any orcs as an ally of the West in the War of the Ring.

Therefore, why should it be any different in D&D, where the Orcs in the game are clearly influenced by Tolkien's works?

Could you make all orcs, "just like us"? Sure you could, but that should have been an OPTION left up to the players and DMs of the game. Not dictated by the DEI rainbow-haired shitlords of WoTC.

EDIT: cross-posted with blackstone's previous reply #113

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 10:33:29 AMThat's why orcs are evil. That's why they're to be eliminated. It's either you or them. No parlay. No quarter. It's kill or be killed.

Remember what King Theodin said: "How can we fight such reckless hate?"

What was Aragon's answer? He didn't say parlay, or wave the white flag of truce. These were orcs and uruk-hai they were facing. He KNEW the threat. There was no option but to...

"Ride out with me! Ride out and face them!"

Damn right you will. Men, hard as steel by war, facing orcs countless times, know the truth.

Are you suggesting that if Sauron had only sent Easterlings and Haradrim and Corsairs (instead of those plus orcs), that Aragorn would have behaved differently and waved a white flag? Hell, no.

The war was not against orcs. It was a war against the hatred of Sauron. Tolkien was even clear in his letters that orcs were not irredeemable (letter 153).

---

In D&D... Even moreso than in Tolkien's Middle Earth, Gygax's Greyhawk doesn't have orcs as an existential threat to humanity. There is no Mordor filled with only orcs. Rather, the evil nations of Greyhawk are human-dominated, like the Great Kingdom, the Horned Society, and the Land of Iuz. Pomarj is a backwater that is ruled by humanoids like orcs, but even it still has many renegade humans and human mercenaries who work with them. The primary enemy of good humans is evil humans.

If one wants to make a setting where humans are all good and the primary struggle is humans against orcs, that's fine too. But that's not Middle Earth or Greyhawk.

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2025, 12:52:52 PMAre you suggesting that if Sauron had only sent Easterlings and Haradrim and Corsairs (instead of those plus orcs), that Aragorn would have behaved differently and waved a white flag? Hell, no.

The war was not against orcs. It was a war against the hatred of Sauron. Tolkien was even clear in his letters that orcs were not irredeemable (letter 153).

No, of course I wasn't suggesting that. Why are you always so goddam obtuse?

And no, Tolkien didn't say that at all. In fact, it more ambiguous:

Did Tolkien believe the Orcs of Middle Earth could be redeemed.

I'll be that guy (for once) and confess monsters were never more than experience points. A means to an end. And I'm probably not the only one.

Since middle school I've never been at a table or in the company of gamers who were wringing their hands over the families of those undead monsters. "These zombies require a proper funeral"? NEVER.

I've never seen or heard of a party attempting to negotiate a peaceful agreement with kobolds. Or goblins. Or Orcs. Where's the diplomacy? "I refuse to fight these noble creatures"? NEVER.

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2025, 12:52:52 PMIn D&D... Even moreso than in Tolkien's Middle Earth, Gygax's Greyhawk doesn't have orcs as an existential threat to humanity. There is no Mordor filled with only orcs. Rather, the evil nations of Greyhawk are human-dominated, like the Great Kingdom, the Horned Society, and the Land of Iuz. Pomarj is a backwater that is ruled by humanoids like orcs, but even it still has many renegade humans and human mercenaries who work with them. The primary enemy of good humans is evil humans.

If one wants to make a setting where humans are all good and the primary struggle is humans against orcs, that's fine too. But that's not Middle Earth or Greyhawk.

Great. Wonderful. Have cookie...

But the point I ultimately made was this: the choice to make Orcs a monster or not should be left up to the players and DMs, not up to WoTC. Furthermore, in this day and age of DEI rainbowed-haired shitlords, I'm most certain that if you play them other as written in the current rules, you will be called a racist.

Therein lies the problem. Players are not given a choice in the current edition.

Don't you agree we as players and DMs should have a choice, or do you support WoTC's decision?

No nuanced BS, just a straight fucking answer. YES or NO.

The more I think about it, the more I think I like the idea that Orcs (and other goblinoid races) are corrupted humans, elves, dwarves, etc. Goblinoids can reproduce like other races, but their origin is in humans and demihumans who were forcibly corrupted or volunteered in the hope of getting power but instead just got turned into thugs for evil powers.
It's a lot more mythical and a bit fairy tale-ish.

Quote from: blackstone on February 10, 2025, 10:33:29 AMNow, I don't know about you, but that's a hell of a compelling tale to justify the orcs behavior. They as a race that feel betrayed and will continue to wage war against all other goodly races, until all are all killed.

Another version from one of the D&D books is that the orcs are pretty much mandated by god, Grummsh, to lay ruin to civilization and enslave all other races. Think that was for Forgotten Realms? Fits as in that setting orcs periodically sweep down south and completely devastate everything they come across until either beaten back or destroyed.

Sure theres plenty who reject this. But they arent orcs anymore as far as the core is concerned and could end up destroyed or enslaved as well.