Demons and Devils are next cuz what is a monster anyway?

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 12:38:32 PMDemons and Devils are next cuz what is a monster anyway?

Well, that would follow the mainstreaming off full orcs via half orc in 3e as a PHB core race.  Iirc tieflings were PHB core from 4e on so playable full demons/devils in 6e?

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 12:38:32 PMDemons and Devils are next cuz what is a monster anyway?

The original Planescape beat you to it long long ago. The setting blurred the lines, not massively. But enough that you could treat these things as kinda-sorta people sometimes. Much like Spelljammer did with a few monster races.

fuck sake somethings been off with the forum for a few months now and either it tells me I double posted when I did not. Or DOESNT tell me Im double posting when I am. This being one.

Quote from: RNGm on February 08, 2025, 01:40:19 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 12:38:32 PMDemons and Devils are next cuz what is a monster anyway?

Well, that would follow the mainstreaming off full orcs via half orc in 3e as a PHB core race.  Iirc tieflings were PHB core from 4e on so playable full demons/devils in 6e?

Half-orcs were first introduced in the 1977 Monster Manual, and then introduced to the core rules with the 1978 Player's Handbook. Orcs became a core race in 2024. So that's 1 year for the half-race to become core, and then 46 years for the full race to become core.

Tieflings were first introduced in the Planescape book in 1994, and then made into a core race in the 4e Player's Handbook in 2008.

It's quite possible core races will expand, but they'd probably expand to the most popular of the existing optional races - like Aarakocra or Goliath.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 07, 2025, 02:55:38 PMSo now that people have the 5.5e MM in hand, it is confirmed that there are no Orcs, and all it has is a bunch of generic 'humanoid' listings after all...

Are there any guidelines on what giving the generic humanoid stat block the extra orc abilities does to its CR? 

I think all this inclusive stuff deprive games from all fun (like species instead of races : so no more half-elf, half-orcs ?)

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2025, 01:13:27 AM

Quote from: RNGm on February 08, 2025, 01:40:19 PMWell, that would follow the mainstreaming off full orcs via half orc in 3e as a PHB core race.  Iirc tieflings were PHB core from 4e on so playable full demons/devils in 6e?

Half-orcs were first introduced in the 1977 Monster Manual, and then introduced to the core rules with the 1978 Player's Handbook. Orcs became a core race in 2024. So that's 1 year for the half-race to become core, and then 46 years for the full race to become core.

By "introduced to the core rules" do you mean simply mentioned, got an NPC or enemy stat block, or were a playable standard race choice for players that didn't require special DM permission?

Quote from: RNGm on February 09, 2025, 08:46:06 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2025, 01:13:27 AM

Quote from: RNGm on February 08, 2025, 01:40:19 PMWell, that would follow the mainstreaming off full orcs via half orc in 3e as a PHB core race.  Iirc tieflings were PHB core from 4e on so playable full demons/devils in 6e?

Half-orcs were first introduced in the 1977 Monster Manual, and then introduced to the core rules with the 1978 Player's Handbook. Orcs became a core race in 2024. So that's 1 year for the half-race to become core, and then 46 years for the full race to become core.

By "introduced to the core rules" do you mean simply mentioned, got an NPC or enemy stat block, or were a playable standard race choice for players that didn't require special DM permission?

The latter. The half-orc was in the 1978 (1e) PHB as a base race requiring no more permission than playing a human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, or half-elf.*

* by which I mean the GM is free to ban any race for any reason... one campaign I had a GM declare that all humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs had gone extinct in a massive war and only half-elves, half-orcs, and half-dwarves (using the base dwarf stats) were allowed as PCs.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2025, 11:23:46 AMThe latter. The half-orc was in the 1978 (1e) PHB as a base race requiring no more permission than playing a human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, or half-elf.

I wasn't aware of that so thanks for mentioning/clarifying it.

Quote from: RNGm on February 08, 2025, 01:40:19 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 12:38:32 PMDemons and Devils are next cuz what is a monster anyway?

Well, that would follow the mainstreaming off full orcs via half orc in 3e as a PHB core race.  Iirc tieflings were PHB core from 4e on so playable full demons/devils in 6e?

   No, they'd be too hard to balance and too 'speciesist.' Expect them highlighted more as patrons for clerics, warlocks, and paladins champions.

Quote from: RNGm on February 09, 2025, 12:29:23 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2025, 11:23:46 AMThe latter. The half-orc was in the 1978 (1e) PHB as a base race requiring no more permission than playing a human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, or half-elf.

I wasn't aware of that so thanks for mentioning/clarifying it.

No problem.

If you came in during the 2e period you wouldn't have seen half-orcs (or demons/devils) to appease the Satanic Panic types (half-orcs because "rape as backstory" was a common element).

Without access to the 1e material you'd be forgiven for thinking half-orcs were original to 3e. If you never got into 2e Planescape you'd be unaware of that being the first place Tieflings were a playable race (setting specific).

Orcs were built to be a balanced player option from the start of 3e (indeed, full write-ups for use as PCs for many of the monstrous humanoids were included in the Monster Manual... so in the core rules, but placed to be optional with GM's permission in the same way prestige casses were supposed to be).

Similarly, while 4e bumped dragonborn and tieflings to the core Players Handbook, the "missing" 3e races along with the monstrous humanoids (orcs, goblins, lizardmen, kobolds, bugbears, etc.) got fully PC compatible write-ups in the 4e Monster Manual... so again core but positioned so that GM permission was presumed to be needed.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2025, 02:31:13 PMNo problem.

If you came in during the 2e period you wouldn't have seen half-orcs (or demons/devils) to appease the Satanic Panic types (half-orcs because "rape as backstory" was a common element).

Without access to the 1e material you'd be forgiven for thinking half-orcs were original to 3e. If you never got into 2e Planescape you'd be unaware of that being the first place Tieflings were a playable race (setting specific).

Orcs were built to be a balanced player option from the start of 3e (indeed, full write-ups for use as PCs for many of the monstrous humanoids were included in the Monster Manual... so in the core rules, but placed to be optional with GM's permission in the same way prestige casses were supposed to be).

Similarly, while 4e bumped dragonborn and tieflings to the core Players Handbook, the "missing" 3e races along with the monstrous humanoids (orcs, goblins, lizardmen, kobolds, bugbears, etc.) got fully PC compatible write-ups in the 4e Monster Manual... so again core but positioned so that GM permission was presumed to be needed.

In my case, I bought some 2e books just to get into the lore but didn't really start playing until 3e.  I didn't realize early D&D was as different from 2nd as 2nd was from 3rd. 

Quote from: RNGm on February 09, 2025, 03:02:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2025, 02:31:13 PMNo problem.

If you came in during the 2e period you wouldn't have seen half-orcs (or demons/devils) to appease the Satanic Panic types (half-orcs because "rape as backstory" was a common element).

Without access to the 1e material you'd be forgiven for thinking half-orcs were original to 3e. If you never got into 2e Planescape you'd be unaware of that being the first place Tieflings were a playable race (setting specific).

Orcs were built to be a balanced player option from the start of 3e (indeed, full write-ups for use as PCs for many of the monstrous humanoids were included in the Monster Manual... so in the core rules, but placed to be optional with GM's permission in the same way prestige casses were supposed to be).

Similarly, while 4e bumped dragonborn and tieflings to the core Players Handbook, the "missing" 3e races along with the monstrous humanoids (orcs, goblins, lizardmen, kobolds, bugbears, etc.) got fully PC compatible write-ups in the 4e Monster Manual... so again core but positioned so that GM permission was presumed to be needed.

In my case, I bought some 2e books just to get into the lore but didn't really start playing until 3e.  I didn't realize early D&D was as different from 2nd as 2nd was from 3rd. 

Less different than you'd think... more absences (and some renaming) than mechanical changes.

The Assassin class for example was pulled along with the half-orc (of note as well, assassin was the only class a half-orc could advance in without level limits) and the Monk removed too as I recall.

Similarly, the Bard was reworked from a special multiclass setup (you needed levels in fighter (5th but no more than 8th), thief (5th but no more than 9th) and then druid. They also had to be human or half-elf and have a 15+ in Str, Dex, Wis, and Cha, a 12+ in Int, and a 10+ in Con) to a thief subclass.

But overall the changes from 1e to 2e were probably the least extreme between any of the other editions.

Quote from: yosemitemike on February 09, 2025, 04:05:05 AMAre there any guidelines on what giving the generic humanoid stat block the extra orc abilities does to its CR? 

a 'tough' has a CR of 1/2  it doesn't have any extra orcy abilities.  A tough boss has a CR of 4.

A tough is a tough, just depends on the costume its wearing.