Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2025, 10:55:50 PMProbably the same fruitcakes from BGG who proclaimed that "Dwarves liking beer is racist." Wish I were joking.

I agree that it's not racist. But I also think it's fine to create a dwarf PC who doesn't like beer. That's the issue.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 03, 2025, 11:05:59 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2025, 05:31:49 PMPart of what I wanted to dispel is how all dwarves are centered on the single character of Gimli - i.e. beer-drinking, axe-wielding miners with a Scottish accent.

Specifically, the Peter Jackson adaptation, which resembled a World of Warcraft dwarf way more than any Tolkien dwarf.

I agree that Peter Jackson popularized that stereotype, but it existed long before his movies.

In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, I once watched a player roll maxium height, minimum weight, and the name Thingrim.  I kid you not.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 03, 2025, 05:03:13 PMThe Legend Sandy Petersen speaking Truth to Power on twiX:

https://x.com/SandyofCthulhu/status/1886518107407310855

Quote"In a pick up game of Runequest c. 1985*, a woman played a dwarf (the race). I made some mention that her PC was short and she took umbrage. "That's racist! My dwarf is tall and willowy!"

Puzzled I asked why she played a dwarf if she wanted to be like that. She (and her husband) doubled down, agreeing it was racism to assume stereotypes about a non-human.

I argued briefly, then went on with the game but seriously? THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY A NONHUMAN EXCEPT TO USE STEREOTYPES.

If you want a non-stereotypical PC, be human. It's what we're for."

He's right.

* Yet another example of early infiltration into the hobby. With 20/20 hindsight, Peterson should have kicked them out of the game and told them to find a different hobby.

So no reasoning or evidence whatsoever? Position discarded then.

Quote from: David Johansen on February 03, 2025, 11:46:35 PMIn Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, I once watched a player roll maxium height, minimum weight, and the name Thingrim.  I kid you not.

I would love to play that character. random generation is the bees knees :-)

He's right. The main reason people play against type is to be wacky and get attention. Wouldn't it be CRAZY if the barbarian was a GNOME??

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2025, 08:06:43 PMIn the original example, the woman says "That's racist", which I think a lot of people are reacting to - but that isn't the general point being made. I don't know the woman in the example, and it's quite possible she was just stupid.

I'm going with "just stupid"

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2025, 11:24:00 PMI agree that Peter Jackson popularized that stereotype, but it existed long before his movies.

Jackson just cribbed the idea from Warhammer.

Who likely stole the idea from some depictions in D&D and as usual blew one aspect totally out of proportion.

Quote from: Omega on February 04, 2025, 02:31:24 PMJackson just cribbed the idea from Warhammer.

Who likely stole the idea from some depictions in D&D and as usual blew one aspect totally out of proportion.

More than one aspect... hands, head, teeth, feet, weapons, etc.      "Heroic" proportions, my ass!   

FWIW, I'm biased as I unabashedly love the Uruk-hai and Moria goblins from the films as they're my favorite fantasy orc depictions on screen.

Dwarves being drunkards who bear grudges is a stereotype. I'd have no problem with the occasional tea-total, easy-going dwarf. Dwarves being short is genetics. If insisting on genetics isn't allowed, then human characters in any game world should be allowed to have wings. After all, it's a stereotype that humans can't fly.

Also, can a real-world player be racist to a fictional race? Or are the nutters going to have to insist that parties have representatives of all races because "representation matters"? Can githyanki be racist, since they're historically oppressed? Or does that only go back to the '70s or '80s, when they were invented? The mind boggles at the stupidity of this take.

"Stereotype" is an unfortunate choice of words, as it means a trait that is unfairly ascribed to all members of a group even though not all members of the group have it.  It's a loaded word that says the ascription should not be used.  "Type" is a better choice, so I'll just go with that.

The point of playing a nonhuman is that they are _different_.  (Unless you're playing Star Trek, of course)  Playing another race and then ignoring the definition of that race really is pointless. 

Playing against type can be interesting, but only if the type is well established in the game, and has a reasonable effect.  If your elf doesn't act like an elf he likely won't be accepted into elf society, and others won't know how to deal with him either.  Drizz't is a good example.  Drizz't was actually kind of cool.  Unfortunately so many people have played a Drizz't of whatever race so much that it's not cool or interesting at all anymore; it's just trite.

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2025, 10:55:50 PMProbably the same fruitcakes from BGG who proclaimed that "Dwarves liking beer is racist." Wish I were joking.

The great irony is that, until we figured out pasteurization, EVERYONE liked whatever the local alcoholic beverage was because the alcohol killed off the bacteria present in most water sources.

Not be taken seriously, but, if you wanted to get pedantic, I'd expect more dwarves to prefer something more like a watered down rye whiskey since rye is more cold tolerant and so could be grown more easily in the higher altitude mountain climes.

Barley needs warmer climes and so beer would be more of Hobbit and human drink (while the elves drink finely aged fruit wines cultivated from the forests because of course they do).

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 04, 2025, 05:36:08 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2025, 10:55:50 PMProbably the same fruitcakes from BGG who proclaimed that "Dwarves liking beer is racist." Wish I were joking.

The great irony is that, until we figured out pasteurization, EVERYONE liked whatever the local alcoholic beverage was because the alcohol killed off the bacteria present in most water sources.

Fun fact: you need about 75% alcohol content to kill most pathogens, the more likely factors in brewed or distilled drinks being safer are the boiling of the ingredients and the fermentation process itself.

IF stereotypes are wrong then how come I'm right so often?

Of course not all stereotypes are right nor wrong. But stereotypes that are very often right are based on observations of reality:

It's night, you're walking alone and a man with it's pants mid buttocks is walking towards you. Is it within reason to feel like said man is a danger to you?

In what reality is based said stereotype?

Problem glasses, piercings, unnatural hair color... Chances are it's a feminist.

It's possible the dwarf was suffering from gigantism.

Quote from: Krazz on February 04, 2025, 03:30:44 PMDwarves being drunkards who bear grudges is a stereotype. I'd have no problem with the occasional tea-total, easy-going dwarf. Dwarves being short is genetics. If insisting on genetics isn't allowed, then human characters in any game world should be allowed to have wings. After all, it's a stereotype that humans can't fly.

Real-world humans with the condition of dwarfism are by definition shorter than 4 feet 10 inches tall - so that's an absolute reality. But the genetics of fantasy dwarves presumably varies a lot. The dvergar in Norse mythology are highly magical creatures who aren't even necessarily short, as implied by names like Fullangr (meaning "Tall Enough") and Har (meaning "High"). This is like how the jötun varied from human-sized to mountain-sized.


Real-world humans can have a wide range of adult height from Tom Thumb to NBA stars. But I think there's an often unintentional D&D-ism that humans can vary, but all non-humans are carbon copies of each other. This is probably influenced from having standardized stat blocks.

It's up to each GM to decide what variation to allow. If the GM says that all dwarves are exactly 4 feet tall and they are all gruff, beer-drinking, axe-wielding miners - then that's what they are. But I think it's interesting to have non-humans to have variety among them. That goes equally for personality as well as physical traits.