Quote from: Acres Wild on February 03, 2025, 01:25:39 PMCairn is the latest attempt to reinvent the wheel when it comes to OSR. The reality is that we are swimming in retro clones and OSR lite games. Once you own one of them, you pretty much have everything you need, but that doesn't make money, so once a month we have a new Kickstarter project that gets over hyped. Similar or better items can be found cheaper at DTRPG or Itch but it's not the latest fad.

Yep, agree.    I cant figure why people keep throwing money at kickstarts.
So many people to try 'once' I guess.  Did that, got burned, didnt even get the tshirt for it.

Quote from: Acres Wild on February 03, 2025, 01:25:39 PMCairn is the latest attempt to reinvent the wheel when it comes to OSR. The reality is that we are swimming in retro clones and OSR lite games. Once you own one of them, you pretty much have everything you need, but that doesn't make money, so once a month we have a new Kickstarter project that gets over hyped. Similar or better items can be found cheaper at DTRPG or Itch but it's not the latest fad.

That is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.

You basically have to write your own, honestly. I've never seen one good GM who was 100% BtB, they ALWAYS changed something to more accurately reflect what they were trying to get out of a game. The OSR just encouraged tons of these games which are nothing more than house rules to proliferate. I rewrote Labyrinth Lord completely to incorporate a bunch of ideas and that's what we played for several years, so you just gotta do it yourself.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.

Out of curiosity, what specific fantasy itch(es) have the games you've tried been unable to scratch?

Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2025, 08:14:06 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.

You basically have to write your own, honestly. I've never seen one good GM who was 100% BtB, they ALWAYS changed something to more accurately reflect what they were trying to get out of a game. The OSR just encouraged tons of these games which are nothing more than house rules to proliferate. I rewrote Labyrinth Lord completely to incorporate a bunch of ideas and that's what we played for several years, so you just gotta do it yourself.

Yeah, beginning to expect that's the case. The chief reason I haven't is a combination of time and the fact that I don't think I could get anyone to play it.

Quote from: RNGm on February 04, 2025, 08:57:01 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.

Out of curiosity, what specific fantasy itch(es) have the games you've tried been unable to scratch?

Mechanically, it's a lot of "almost there, but something's wrong". Dragon Warriors has great core systems, particularly the combat, but there's a lot of unpolished side mechanics and the classes need a design overhaul. It's a good game for it's default setting/tone, but a bit limited beyond that. Warlock! also has good core systems, but it's also a little married to its implicit setting and the magic is lacklustre. I also don't love the lack of attributes. Shadow of the Demon Lord has great class progression and magic systems, but the combat system is mid and the default setting blows. WEG d6 is a brilliant rules structure, but the fantasy version is half-baked. So on and so forth. I like the Omni System, too, but again each version of it is custom-tailored to a setting. Every fantasy RPG I read has at least one aspect of it that prevents it from being a game I could run for years in the future.

Tone/Genre-wise, there's a subgenre that's been percolating in my head for a few years now, which as far as I can tell doesn't exist in tabletop gaming form. It's hard to explain, but what I have in mind I call "cosmic fantasy". Something that takes the internal logic of cosmic horror, with its sense of scale & mystery, and the way it treads the line between science fiction, fantasy and esotericism, and then applies that to a renaissance or medieval dark fantasy game world.

As far as existing RPGs go: Black Void, Carcosa and Cthulhu Dark Ages are kind of thrusting in similar directions, but they all have their own problems and none of them are exactly the genre I want. Hyperborea has the potential, but because it's a retroclone it ends up just feeling like standard D&D fantasy in practice. Videogames like Skald: Against the Black Priory, Bloodborne and Darkest Dungeon are all a lot closer to what I have in mind than anything I've seen on the tabletop, though still not quite there.

I've put some thought into it, and if I was going to sit down to seriously create what I have in mind, it'd have to be an entirely new game: custom rules, custom setting, custom bestiary. I'd probably start with the OpenD6 SRD and then use the WEG Star Wars Force abilities as a baseline for building the magic system, reflavoring and expanding them as I went along. I'd want an archetype/profession system, an overhauled injury/death system, some tweaks to the combat, and different weapon/armor rules. Then I need a setting primer with its own cosmology and a book of original creatures that fit the intended genre. If I ever wanted to sell the thing, I'd have to learn to draw (because I have no illusions about it being profitable enough to fund art commissions), not to mention formatting, editing, publishing, etc.

There's a good chance I would actually do it someday. I've done some work already. But I do it with the understanding that it'll probably take me years to get it where I want it, and in all likelihood I'm doing all that work for nothing other than my own satisfaction. At the moment it seems like my time is better used writing table-ready material for existing games that I can actually use with my players.

@ForgottenF:   Well, at least you can say you've tried a variety in your quest for the right fit rpg!  I can't really add any that might scratch the itch unfortunately but appreciate the lengthy post as it mentioned two games that I never heard of, Dragon Warriors and Cthulhu Dark Ages.  Is the latter substantively different from the normal Cthulhu in terms of game mechanics/combat in addition to the obviously massive setting change?   I'm not particularly drawn to percentile games personally but the major reason I've never tried Cthulhu is the setting time period and a perception (however ignorant it may be) that it's adverse to action.   I don't expect your average fantasy game's level of combat by any means but it always seemed like you're actively avoiding it at all costs at every turn from the few reviews I've watched of the core game/setting.   Setting it in dark age England sounds like that might fix both issues potentially (obviously the drastic setting change is a given).

Quote from: RNGm on February 04, 2025, 06:01:15 PM@ForgottenF:   Well, at least you can say you've tried a variety in your quest for the right fit rpg!  I can't really add any that might scratch the itch unfortunately but appreciate the lengthy post as it mentioned two games that I never heard of, Dragon Warriors and Cthulhu Dark Ages.  Is the latter substantively different from the normal Cthulhu in terms of game mechanics/combat in addition to the obviously massive setting change?   I'm not particularly drawn to percentile games personally but the major reason I've never tried Cthulhu is the setting time period and a perception (however ignorant it may be) that it's adverse to action.   I don't expect your average fantasy game's level of combat by any means but it always seemed like you're actively avoiding it at all costs at every turn from the few reviews I've watched of the core game/setting.   Setting it in dark age England sounds like that might fix both issues potentially (obviously the drastic setting change is a given).

I should say that I haven't gotten to play all of those games. Dragon Warriors I have played, and it is a fantastic game, especially if you want to run a more mythic/folkloric/historical campaign, then I heartily recommend it. I have very little time logged with Call of Cthulhu in general, and none with Dark Ages, but I would guess that if anything it makes the game less action-focused rather than more. In regular CoC, the monsters are much more powerful than you, but you might get lucky and come up against them when you happen to have a B.A.R. or a bazooka or something. No such luck in the dark ages.

It's really up to the GM, though. Yeah, the big-name monsters of the Cthulhu Mythos are generally a death sentence to any human that tries to fight them --they kind of have to be to be true to the source-- but there's plenty of potential enemies in the game that a party of investigators plausibly can fight. Others can weigh in, but my impression is that in most CoC adventures the majority of adversaries are either humans low-level creatures like serpent men or ghouls, and the big eldritch horrors get saved for centerpiece moments.

Still, that's part of why I wouldn't use it for what I was talking about. I still want a game where a top-tier hero with a battleaxe can go up against a Shantak and have a chance of coming out on top.