I lost track of the games claiming to be "OSR" that were anything but.

There are folk out there who, of couse, stretch it to pretty much mean everything on earth.

I am eating for them to declare 4e D&D an "OSR" game.

Quote from: bat on February 02, 2025, 07:33:36 PMI believe that as TARGA became the OSR it had the same intention for a while, yet over the years it has morphed to mean TSR/early D&D to most people, which to me is sad. And hey, RIFTS has been around since '89, if you don't use the revised Ultimate Edition...I do, but you don't have to.

Sadly, the "Ultimate" edition didn't make even a 1/10th the changes I had hoped it would make so I don't consider them to be substantively different (similar to D&D 3/3.5).  We do at least agree on Barbarians of Lemuria (based on your forum signature) though as I wholeheartedly recommend that game and hope to pick up the Mythic+ version of the game very soon!

Quote from: RNGm on February 02, 2025, 08:35:51 PM

Quote from: bat on February 02, 2025, 07:33:36 PMI believe that as TARGA became the OSR it had the same intention for a while, yet over the years it has morphed to mean TSR/early D&D to most people, which to me is sad. And hey, RIFTS has been around since '89, if you don't use the revised Ultimate Edition...I do, but you don't have to.

Sadly, the "Ultimate" edition didn't make even a 1/10th the changes I had hoped it would make so I don't consider them to be substantively different (similar to D&D 3/3.5).  We do at least agree on Barbarians of Lemuria (based on your forum signature) though as I wholeheartedly recommend that game and hope to pick up the Mythic+ version of the game very soon!

I am not a fan of the Ultimate edition either, however, just because a game doesn't have new editions, can it not be 'old school' if it has been around for a while? Barbarians of Lemuria and Legend (the stripped down version) are both a lot of fun and there is now a supplement for Barbarians of Legend that adds shades of older D&D with demihumans and dungeon crawls.

The thing about the OSR is that there isn't even a generally agreed upon definition of what it even means.  There isn't even general agreement on what the R stands for.  I would say that OSR means that group of games based on older editions of D&D that are broadly compatible with each other with minimal conversion.  If I can take stuff from it to use in another OSR game with little hassle, then it's an OSR game.  I guess it's more of a practical definition.  That's my own definition though and not one that's generally used.  Now, in a lot of cases, it seems to be based on a vague, undefined old school "vibe".  It feels like an OSR game, therefore it's an OSR game.  OSR is undefined enough that I can't really say that a vibes game like Mork Borg isn't an OSR game but the label has become nebulous enough that it's not really useful or informative for a customer any more. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on February 03, 2025, 05:12:24 AMThe thing about the OSR is that there isn't even a generally agreed upon definition of what it even means.  There isn't even general agreement on what the R stands for.  I would say that OSR means that group of games based on older editions of D&D that are broadly compatible with each other with minimal conversion.  If I can take stuff from it to use in another OSR game with little hassle, then it's an OSR game.  I guess it's more of a practical definition.  That's my own definition though and not one that's generally used.  Now, in a lot of cases, it seems to be based on a vague, undefined old school "vibe".  It feels like an OSR game, therefore it's an OSR game.  OSR is undefined enough that I can't really say that a vibes game like Mork Borg isn't an OSR game but the label has become nebulous enough that it's not really useful or informative for a customer any more. 

And I believe that all of your points are dead on and while it may confuse some people, this vagueness also means that the OSR is beyond being taken over by a leader; it is just too scattered for anyone to say, 'I am in charge of this movement now!' (and some have tried), because it is not easy to corral, which, while sometimes detrimental, is also a strength.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 02, 2025, 12:28:18 PMThere's a whole class of games that I usually see being called Nu-SR, where they're rules light games going for an OSR vibe, but but are mechanically different enough to not be OSR by the strict definition. Cairn is probably the most popular, but there's a bunch. A short list in no particular order:

--The Black Hack (and all its many variants)
--Index Card RPG
--EZd6
--The Hero's Journey
--Into the Odd
--Whitehack
--Mork Borg
--Knave
--Mothership
--Sharp Swords and Sinister Spells

Honestly, it's an incredibly fuzzy classification of games. Pretty much anything that's rules light and sort of low-powered gets lumped in there. I've even seen more story-game type games like Dungeon World and Blades In the Dark thrown in there.

I think the most different games which most people here would still call OSR would be Kevin Crawford's games, Stars Without Number/Wolves of God/Worlds Without Number, etc. They still use AC, Hit Die, the recognizable classes/level system, six attributes, etc., but the 2d6 core mechanic is a departure. You could argue for Dungeon Crawl Classics with the dice chain mechanic, too.

I definitely draw the line against Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark, and other Forge crap. His Majesty the Worm goes in that category too. Mork Borg is slightly closer to OSR than those even though I despise it.

Quote from: bat on February 03, 2025, 10:31:17 AMAnd I believe that all of your points are dead on and while it may confuse some people, this vagueness also means that the OSR is beyond being taken over by a leader; it is just too scattered for anyone to say, 'I am in charge of this movement now!' (and some have tried), because it is not easy to corral, which, while sometimes detrimental, is also a strength.

I've skimmed through several OSR titles as a result of posting this thread yesterday.  Therefore...



                                                                 

Quote from: RNGm on February 02, 2025, 08:15:20 PMEventually publishing but for now it's the equivalent of a couple digital napkins worth of material (which is apparently enough to raise millions on kickstarter if you have the right hairline *cough* MCDM!).  I like the ideas behind OSR in terms of the goals of the games, the feel of the sessions, and the general asthetic but not necessarily the mechanics that achieve them.  I just didn't know if I could feasibly end up calling whatever comes out the other end OSR (and obviously I'd have to wait to actually flesh out my ideas to actually try!) in a cart before the horse situation.  I appreciate the informative post and I only cut out the meat of it so as not to quote the entire thing.

Thanks that helps. The biggest lesson one can take from the original folks from the late 60s and early 70s is to think of something fun to play as a campaign. Make the rules and aides you need to run it. Then start playing.

More than anything the OSR was and continues to be shaped by those who do.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/those-who-do-and-old-school-renaissance.html

So my recommendations are

• You write up a bullet list of what it is you want to do creatively.
• Since you are not happy with the current offering of mechanics, write a TERSE outline of your ideal system.
• Start writing.
• Organize and run a campaign.
• Review and rewrite.
• Repeat the above two until you are happy with your draft.
• Then proceed onto the things you need to do to publish it.

The only further thing I recommend is start talking about what you are doing on social media either text (blogging) or video (Youtube). It will get an early start on promoting your stuff and getting people's attention.

What you don't want to do is get everything ready, launch a kickstarter, and THEN try to do promotion. It will probably land with a thud even if your material is good. When folks start out I tell them if you can make a 100 sales in your first years you will probably feel that it was well worth the hobby time you spent going the extra mile to polish things up.

The best way to get that first 100 sales is to be known as a friendly helpful person on social media generous with sharing material and advice. Just keep in mind whatever you do, the way you do things will be A way not THE way. People are a lot more receptive to that mindset.

From there, you can bootstrap yourself to whatever level of publishing you have the time and resources for.

Also look around Patreon and similar sites that have artists you like. If they offer art as part of subscribing it a good way to build up your initial library of art as well as supporting them.

Quote from: yosemitemike on February 03, 2025, 05:12:24 AMbut the label has become nebulous enough that it's not really useful or informative for a customer any more. 

Pro Tip: OSR was never useful or informative for a customer as a marketing term.

From the get go there was big difference in feel between the "gonzo" OSR and the "classic/retro" OSR. And it quickly branched out from there. All of us who got in at the time and those who came later quickly learned that it was better just to promote what our individual takes were about.

But there obvious parallels so it was just easier to say OSR rather than

Quotethe part of the RPG industry who make stuff based on classic editions of the world's most popular role-playing game.

Plus it was and still fun to use given the whole OSR and TSR thing.

Quote from: bat on February 03, 2025, 10:31:17 AMAnd I believe that all of your points are dead on and while it may confuse some people, this vagueness also means that the OSR is beyond being taken over by a leader; it is just too scattered for anyone to say, 'I am in charge of this movement now!' (and some have tried), because it is not easy to corral, which, while sometimes detrimental, is also a strength.

For what it worth the OSR was always beyond being taken over. Myself and everybody else were stubborn bastards when it came to our creative visions. That combined with the original hack being based on the open content of the D20 SRD meant at any time anybody could say "f*** you" and go their own way, reverse engineer the hack, and do their own thing.

Every other niche whether new or old is dominated by a publisher or two. Traveller and Cepheus is perhaps the closet thing to the OSR the industry has right now. D100 RPGs will probably wind up like the OSR if Chaosium or Design Mechanism ever falter.

Even with abundant open content, the problem with a niche being dominated by a publisher or two is that their creative agenda tends to get the focus. The most talented authors tend to gravitate to work with those companies rather than spearhead their own efforts. Independent efforts do exist because of the available open content but they are not as dynamic as what happens in the highly de-centralized OSR.

Quote from: estar on February 03, 2025, 01:47:38 PMSo my recommendations are

• You write up a bullet list of what it is you want to do creatively.
• Since you are not happy with the current offering of mechanics, write a TERSE outline of your ideal system.
• Start writing.
• Organize and run a campaign.
• Review and rewrite.
• Repeat the above two until you are happy with your draft.
• Then proceed onto the things you need to do to publish it.

The only further thing I recommend is start talking about what you are doing on social media either text (blogging) or video (Youtube). It will get an early start on promoting your stuff and getting people's attention.

I appreciate the very good advice and I suspect I'll have a problem with the marketing aspect as I tend to be a more private and specifically off camera person myself.   I'm still mostly at the concept stage with things still in flux (again... not that it stopped MCDM from megafund raising!) as I'm being introduced to games already out in the industry that I wasn't truly knowledgeable about.  I've casually done some research/groundwork but obviously needed more.

Quote from: estar on February 03, 2025, 02:10:37 PMFor what it worth the OSR was always beyond being taken over. Myself and everybody else were stubborn bastards when it came to our creative visions. That combined with the original hack being based on the open content of the D20 SRD meant at any time anybody could say "f*** you" and go their own way, reverse engineer the hack, and do their own thing.

Every other niche whether new or old is dominated by a publisher or two. Traveller and Cepheus is perhaps the closet thing to the OSR the industry has right now. D100 RPGs will probably wind up like the OSR if Chaosium or Design Mechanism ever falter.

Even with abundant open content, the problem with a niche being dominated by a publisher or two is that their creative agenda tends to get the focus. The most talented authors tend to gravitate to work with those companies rather than spearhead their own efforts. Independent efforts do exist because of the available open content but they are not as dynamic as what happens in the highly de-centralized OSR.

You are pretty hardcore, I have had you on my blogroll since 2009, and I am still not on yours! I'd better pull my socks up to qualify!

Quote from: bat on February 03, 2025, 03:19:42 PMYou are pretty hardcore, I have had you on my blogroll since 2009, and I am still not on yours! I'd better pull my socks up to qualify!

Sorry about that and I just fixed it.

Quote from: bat on February 02, 2025, 12:45:21 PMAs the guy that made the TARGA Yahoo Group and flyers and was involved since 2006, TARGA became the OSR and the idea was to get people to play an older style of game, NOT just TSR/D&D.

My stance on the definition of OSR as well. Early games had the expectation you would be carving your own path with the suggested rules presented. Traveller, FGU games, Hero... they all have the same message, "These are the bones, you need to put the meat on." Which suited my attitudes completely as an 11 yo DM.

Quote from: estar on February 03, 2025, 03:36:42 PM

Quote from: bat on February 03, 2025, 03:19:42 PMYou are pretty hardcore, I have had you on my blogroll since 2009, and I am still not on yours! I'd better pull my socks up to qualify!

Sorry about that and I just fixed it.

I was just ribbing you, yet much appreciated!