Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 31, 2025, 02:20:00 PMNo matter how many times you undersell it, it's still not Kelsey's fault your favorite indie game didn't do as well.

This kind of motivation-projection completely undercuts any kind of persuasiveness you might have been hoping to achieve.  All argument relies at least partially on good faith, and that's as bad faith an argument as anyone could make.  The sales of any other game don't affect the quality, playability, or fun of Shadowdark, nor does Shadowdark theirs.  Argue based on that.

Also, this thread reminds me that I mentioned on another that I would do a post-mortem on my group's experience with Shadowdark.  We're about 2 months in.  Might give a "preliminary" take now, then a more complete report when we're done...

Greetings!

Yeah, Geesus. I have argued Shadowdark's merits and virtues since the beginning. There are a minority of teeth-gnashing haters, but to my assessment, their arguments are weak, and always have been. The *ONLY* reasonable take I've seen for someone not loving Shadowdark is that they have already invested in OSE, and are not interested in changing to a new rule set. Ok.

By every criteria cherished by the OSR, Shadowdark has in full effect. The rationale for the hate has always to me come across as small-dick energy. Bitter, resentful, gagging with spite and jealousy that Shadowdark has been hugely successsful, while their pet game gets fucked in the ass. Whaah. That's the way the market goes. It's also neat to know that Kelsey continues to be hugely successful--she has sold out of current stock of Shadowdark at least once, and more orders always coming in for more. Kelsey is an absolute success.

Unchained & Unscripted, a YouTube channel, continues to celebrate and promote the game he runs of Shadowdark, and has done so for many conventions now, with great success. Myself, and several friends have all embraced Shadowdark, also with great success. I have seen on other websites, folks talking about solo games, new games--and Shadowdark is very often and enthusiastically mentioned and promoted. Shadowdark doesn't just have some clique of "YouTube Influencers" that enjoy the game, but a great many old school gamers as well as more recent 5E gamer converts.

Kelsey has been gaming for a very long time--most of her life. She has and continues to attend *numerous* game conventions, every year. She played old school D&D, and has been successful creating modules for 5E D&D for a solid number of years before she created Shadowdark. Kelsey loves D&D, game conventions, and gamers. She has been very friendly, gracious, and a class-act with everyone that has met her. I have spoken with her directly, and she has been absolutely fun, very sweet, and a total gaming professional. Kelsey has done verything RIGHT with Shadowdark, and worked hard to contribute to gaming, and to celebrate old school D&D. You would think all of that would mean something to the whining ingrates that seethe and chitter all the time, gnashing their teeth in unending bitterness. Oh well. As I mentioned previously, there's every good reason most anyone in the hobby should embrace and enjoy Shadowdark. If it is not to your preference, in good grace, fine. The pettiness, the bitter, seething hatred though really is just sad and pathetic.

How about instead of choking on your own bitter resentment and jealousy, how about celebrate Shadowdark's success? How about encouraging Kelsey, and anyone to embrace Shadowdark as a worthy and fun game, and an excellent OSR D&D contribution? How about being positive and encouraging?

It's also interesting to note that Kelsey has never shit on anyone, or belittled them, or disparaged anyone. Nor has she become sucked into bashing and crying about other games that she doesn't like, or those games that have been more successful than Shadowdark. She has just been a gracious, kind, and sweet person. A good game designer with a passion and joy for old school D&D and gaming in general.

Go and BUY a basic Shadowdark book, and get Kelsey's extra supplements. They are all great! I have been running Shadowdark in my own campaign for awhile now. It's a great system, simple, quick, brutal. Very easy to modify and use. A JOY to DM, as well as PLAY. I also backed Kelsey's Shadowdark Kickstarter, and got everything at the Legend level or whatever the high level was, so I got everything, including a second copy of the rulebook done up in dragonskin or something. *Laughing*

There now. I'm enjoying a fine cigar, and some fresh brewed coffee. I hope you will all enjoy Shadowdark. It is an excellent game, and great fun to play and to DM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sure. Shadowdark is a mediocre Game for anyone familiar with the OSR scene and it was vastly over hyped for being mediocre. Like, it's basically a homebrew of all the bits of OSR that most people agree on being good and put into a nice, easy to read package and easy to play.

But for someone not familiar with the OSR and doesn't have a set of rules tailored to their liking. It's perfect for them. It's pretty, it has done most of the hard work of finding what most people will find agreeable and it offers the core experience of what OSR is all about. Is it still over hyped? Surely. But when you are knee deep in marketing, its easy to market a product.

Shadowdark was the perfect storm of a game. It first and far most is a game. It came out during the end times of 5e. And to top it off it has great presentation and puts a bunch of good rules together that work well together.

Sure, I agree with Pundit that Kelesy should have credited the other games she lifted rules from, simply because she knows very well the audience she was marketing too and what an impact such a thing would have ment to the wider OSR space. As it was honestly gross seeing the uninformed laud her as some sort of saint of game deisgn... for reusing old ideas. Especially when she was marketing to said uninformed rather then what most in the OSR do which is market to each other.

Still. Weird people have such a hate boner for Shadowdark. Like, it's not a bad system and someone successfully marketing a product that isn't bad should be an achievement. Especially when that someone is introducing people to the "bigger" hobby outside of D&D. Like, this is no GG, it's just plain ol good marketing done by a good team. Simple as.

Quote from: Kahoona on February 01, 2025, 05:04:18 AMShadowdark was the perfect storm of a game. It first and far most is a game. It came out during the end times of 5e. And to top it off it has great presentation and puts a bunch of good rules together that work well together.

Sure, I agree with Pundit that Kelesy should have credited the other games she lifted rules from, simply because she knows very well the audience she was marketing too and what an impact such a thing would have ment to the wider OSR space. As it was honestly gross seeing the uninformed laud her as some sort of saint of game deisgn... for reusing old ideas. Especially when she was marketing to said uninformed rather then what most in the OSR do which is market to each other.

Still. Weird people have such a hate boner for Shadowdark. Like, it's not a bad system and someone successfully marketing a product that isn't bad should be an achievement. Especially when that someone is introducing people to the "bigger" hobby outside of D&D. Like, this is no GG, it's just plain ol good marketing done by a good team. Simple as.

The truest post in this entire thread IMO.  If you're already huge into OSR then this game wasn't specifically made for you... but you can benefit from it because it's bringing lots more people into the dank dungeon that is the subniche of the OSR and some of those folks will invariably fork into whatever subflavor you actually prefer.   I'm not into the OSR personally as it currently stands per se (though I don't dislike it either.. I'm simply neutral) but I appreciate some of the ideas in Shadowdark (at least from the free quickstart as I didn't back/buy it) regardless of the original source but was also impressed from a production standpoint by the whole package/presentation. 

I have no idea if she didn't explicitly credit other games as inspirations (NOT the same thing as theft) then I think that was poor form and probably the only legitimate criticism I've seen suggested in this thread.  I can't confirm whether or not or to what degree she did or didn't as, again, I don't have the final released book though but I'd have preferred if she did that.