Quote from: Acres Wild on January 29, 2025, 12:10:03 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: Acres Wild on January 28, 2025, 08:09:20 PMMany of us use the term D&D in the same way we call all tissues "Kleenex" or cola "Coke or Pepsi," it has become part of the lexicon, and WOTC is using it's name recognition and history to sell an inferior product. The most innovative and creative products these days are coming out of the indie and OSR scene. These games and supplements are typically made by passionate artists and visionaries without regard for shareholders and profit margins. Popularity has never been an effective indicator of quality in these types of endeavors, McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in town, obviously it has the best food, right?

Actually, their Egg McMuffin is really good and, for the price point, their burgers are good. Not great, but good enough for the price.

I bring this up because while a market leader like McDonalds will never hold its position if its awful, often times "good enough" is good enough with its ubiquity and consistency (a McDonalds McMuffin in Florida is exactly the same as the ones in Indiana or Montana) being real selling points.

The 5-star restaurant selling perfectly prepared Wagu beef, never frozen vegetables, with wine from a local vintner to five tables a night might be the most divine meal you've ever experienced, but that's not exactly something you can scale. The RPG equivalent is some master GM with a lovingly crafted original world and a system purpose built to both his style and the setting... but without that specific GM it falls apart into a pile of indecipherable notes because 80% of it was in the GM's head and never committed to paper.

That's modern D&D in a nutshell. It's product isn't great, but it's good enough for many casuals and you can find a table already running it just about anywhere you can find a local game store or hobby shop.

While their are tiny 5-star rpgs out there, they lack the reach and require a touch nearly identical to its creator's to run properly. 95% of WotC D&D's competitors are the RPG equivalents of Burger King, Arby's, Taco Bell, Chick-fil-a, and some local diners buying their food from the same suppliers as the chain restaurants.

My feeling is that even the best GM will struggle with a system that has been burdened by incomprehensible rules and arbitrary moral relativism. I disagree about indie and OSR game designers being equivalent to Burger King. I don't eat at McDonald's, so I will take your word on the Egg McMuffin.

Honestly, the best GMs don't need a system because the players trust their rulings to fair. They can make even the worst system sing (case in point; Kevin Seimbedia. Arguably one of the worst game systems available in Palladium Books, but both personally and heard from others he might be one of the best GMs to have ever lived).

And as to OSR and Indies... what exactly do you think the OSR is selling? What is OSRIC but a repackaged AD&D? Basic Fantasy is repackaged B/X D&D. Pathfinder was a repackaged 3.5e. Mutants & Masterminds is still recognizable as derived from 3.5e.

They may be selling an older recipe (and marketing as such), but they're still selling a burger based on one that was available at McDonalds. One might change out the special sauce or grill instead of cook the burger on a hot plate, but it's still beef paddies, cheese, bun, and some condiments served with fries and a soft drink for a comparable price.

Other indies might sell roast beef or chicken or loose seasoned ground beef or a frank instead of a burger (any of the non-fantasy and/or d20-based systems out there), but it's still basically a sandwich, a side, and a drink. 90% aren't superior enough in quality to overcome the network effect and D&D/McDonalds being "good enough" for most people looking for a quick meal/something to do while hanging out with friends.

Basically, you're arguing that the 5-star restaurant is better. I don't disagree.

But, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.

You're never going to beat WotC by just being better unless their product becomes unpalatable to mass audiences. Even with all the crap, WotC D&D isn't there yet (heck, the majority at my FLGS think the 2024 edition is an improvement over 2014... just like McDonalds remains most popular).

That doesn't mean you can't choose to eat at better quality restaurants and invite others to join you. There's also a clear market for higher end non-chain restaurants/RPGs.

It just means expecting WotC D&D to crumble just because better quality products are available is a recipe for disappointment.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMBut, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.

What exactly are these $ signs in your analogy? It couldn't be actual money, because in this case the "fine dining" is a fraction of the price of the "fast food". So what are you actually saying is the "cost" of going OSR?

Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 01:18:20 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMBut, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.

What exactly are these $ signs in your analogy? It couldn't be actual money, because in this case the "fine dining" is a fraction of the price of the "fast food". So what are you actually saying is the "cost" of going OSR?

If you believe "steakhouse chain" (i.e. Logan's or Texas Roadhouse) is "fine dining" you are woefully misinformed. The analogy has probably been tortured to death here so I'll drop it.

The point is that having a "better RPG" isn't enough to actually dethrone WotC. Quality is only one factor in the equation and, so long as WotC can hit "good enough" quality all of its other pros* will overwhelm the pros of being a better system.

How many years have people been saying "(WotC) D&D is dead this time for sure!"? How many people have visions of their superior mechanics being enough to dethrone it only to find out few care enough about the improvements to give up the mediocre but popular game?

You can say XYZ is the "real D&D" all you want, but only Paizo got close enough to make that claim credible and only until 5e came in and took it all back. The ONLY reason Paizo came close is that WotC changed its product to the point it was no longer "good enough"... to go back to the restaurant analogy one last time... McDonald's would lose its top spot too if it replaced all its burgers with tofu, but if they came back and said "we're sorry. We're bringing back the all-beef patties" they'd recover the top spot pretty quickly just like WotC did with 5e... because for most customers quality only matters in terms of a minimum threshold.

* ease of finding a game/players and uniformity of play no matter where you find yourself being primary ones... I can walk into just about any game store in the country and find a 5E table where they'd let me play a half-elf warlock.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 04:03:23 PMIf you believe "steakhouse chain" (i.e. Logan's or Texas Roadhouse) is "fine dining" you are woefully misinformed.

I've never heard of either. Are you claiming that masses of people wouldn't switch to these restaurants if they cost 1/5th the price of McDonald's?

OSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.

Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.

  They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PM

Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.

  They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.

"More fun" and "come with a cooler crowd" are also entirely personal preference calls.

Similarly, cheaper depends on if you're settling for a PDF or want a full color hardcover like D&D has then the prices are compared (ex. a hardcover in premium color for ACKS is $55 on DriveThruRPG... comparable to a PHB which is all most players need... if you're still playing the 2014 edition then the SRD is free too).

If you only want the PDF it's definitely cheaper, but we've also already established price is far from the only factor in choosing a system.

Indeed, backing up your point, a lot people I know much prefer physical books and the fact that the D&D books are right there on the shelf to buy now from the FLGS is a powerful incentive over ordering a POD online that won't arrive for at least several days.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PMThey're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.

I agree with all of that except "pretty".

But then there's the that folks get upset when someone like Kelsey Dionne has good marketing. Makes me wonder how much the OSR just likes shooting itself in the foot because "mass marketing isn't cool" or something.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMHonestly, the best GMs don't need a system because the players trust their rulings to fair. They can make even the worst system sing (case in point; Kevin Seimbedia. Arguably one of the worst game systems available in Palladium Books, but both personally and heard from others he might be one of the best GMs to have ever lived).

This right here. This is PRECISELY what is not being advocated for enough: we need more and better GM's. This is what makes everything else you say in your post even more important... see below.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 29, 2025, 12:57:32 PMAnd as to OSR and Indies... what exactly do you think the OSR is selling? What is OSRIC but a repackaged AD&D? Basic Fantasy is repackaged B/X D&D. Pathfinder was a repackaged 3.5e. Mutants & Masterminds is still recognizable as derived from 3.5e.

They may be selling an older recipe (and marketing as such), but they're still selling a burger based on one that was available at McDonalds. One might change out the special sauce or grill instead of cook the burger on a hot plate, but it's still beef paddies, cheese, bun, and some condiments served with fries and a soft drink for a comparable price.

Other indies might sell roast beef or chicken or loose seasoned ground beef or a frank instead of a burger (any of the non-fantasy and/or d20-based systems out there), but it's still basically a sandwich, a side, and a drink. 90% aren't superior enough in quality to overcome the network effect and D&D/McDonalds being "good enough" for most people looking for a quick meal/something to do while hanging out with friends.

Basically, you're arguing that the 5-star restaurant is better. I don't disagree.

But, unless you're a foodie/RPG connoisseur, "better" isn't enough of an incentive to switch. A $6 value meal isn't fine dining, but it fills you up with $24 left over to do something else vs. the $30 you'd pay for even the mid-range steak and sides of a chain steakhouse.

You're never going to beat WotC by just being better unless their product becomes unpalatable to mass audiences. Even with all the crap, WotC D&D isn't there yet (heck, the majority at my FLGS think the 2024 edition is an improvement over 2014... just like McDonalds remains most popular).

That doesn't mean you can't choose to eat at better quality restaurants and invite others to join you. There's also a clear market for higher end non-chain restaurants/RPGs.

It just means expecting WotC D&D to crumble just because better quality products are available is a recipe for disappointment.

... I 100% agree. But that's why this moment in our hobby is so special and important. Using your analogy - WotC is doing to D&D what I believe is the equivalent to McDonalds being discovered to having used exhumed bodies to make Soylent Green and now it's public.

The D&D brand has a stink about it now. People are eating it, but many are falling away from it. This is that chance for the OSR and all the other indy-companies to start scooping them up. But to do it, we need more competent GM's out there to run these games and settings. When D&D goes digital, what ever is up and running will be what is left of what our hobby IS: people that play RPG's. Not CRPG's.

McDonalds will be serving Soylent McMuffins openly. The people that want to eat it, will head down into that mausoleum and eat it. But they're not playing the game(s) WE are playing anymore than anyone reading this post believes that playing Baldurs Gate 3 on their PC means they're a roleplaying.

This is why it's US that matters. We'll be doing this long after the brand is dead. And I'd argue for many of us - it has been for a long time. We're just staring up at the edifice of it and waiting for it to topple. In the meantime we need to be teaching people The Old Ways.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PM

Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.

  They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.

-harder to find: I can find a bunch of OSR titles of drivethruRPG.net in a matter of seconds. They're not harder to find

-less pretty: that's a matter of personal taste. all art is subjective.

-less supported? Some are, some aren't. Depends if the creator is one person or a group and how much they want to devote to their game.

-harder to find players: it's much easier now to find players for any game than it was decades ago due to the internet. there are online groups in X, Reddit and Discord who are playing online or are searching for gamers locally.

-lack of brand name: all of the publishers in the OSR world are not looking to beat out D&D. They just want to provide an ALTERNATIVE to D&D today. They fact that these independent publishers are around with their games proves that there is a demand. Not huge, but a demand nonetheless.

Most players like just sticking with D&D 5e and that's fine, especially the ones who've been introduced to rpgs in the last few years. But there are some who are willing to get out of their comfort zone and want to try an alternative. I've read numerous times on Reddit and elsewhere of people who are looking for something else besides D&D. The OSR provides that alternative, and even though it's not that big of a market, it still there and that's important.

They only way any alternative to D&D can even match it would need the marketing power of a company like Hasbro. Unless somebody can get Musk's ear, I don't see that happening. But I don't care if what I play isn't "popular", which is ironic IMO.

I remember a time when D&D wasn't popular at all. It was considered "fringe". For me, that was cool. IT was edgy and out of bounds. It was a game that geeks and nerds of all types tended to gravitate to.

Today, D&D is pretty much mainstream. IMO, it has lost it's edge. But at the same time, they recently went all DEI and alienated a portion of their fanbase. It sounds like to me that the folks at WoTC and Hasbro didn't read the room too well.

Quote from: blackstone on January 30, 2025, 01:01:44 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 29, 2025, 07:59:14 PM

Quote from: Zalman on January 29, 2025, 07:34:45 PMOSR games are more fun to play and cheaper to buy and come with a cooler crowd. They're already doing multiple things better.

  They're also harder to find, less pretty, less well supported in the ways much of the 5E audience expects, harder to find players for, and lack the Brand Name that 50+ years of consumer culture has made all-important. They definitely have handicaps from a marketing perspective.

-harder to find: I can find a bunch of OSR titles of drivethruRPG.net in a matter of seconds. They're not harder to find

-less pretty: that's a matter of personal taste. all art is subjective.

-less supported? Some are, some aren't. Depends if the creator is one person or a group and how much they want to devote to their game.

-harder to find players: it's much easier now to find players for any game than it was decades ago due to the internet. there are online groups in X, Reddit and Discord who are playing online or are searching for gamers locally.

-lack of brand name: all of the publishers in the OSR world are not looking to beat out D&D. They just want to provide an ALTERNATIVE to D&D today. They fact that these independent publishers are around with their games proves that there is a demand. Not huge, but a demand nonetheless.

Most players like just sticking with D&D 5e and that's fine, especially the ones who've been introduced to rpgs in the last few years. But there are some who are willing to get out of their comfort zone and want to try an alternative. I've read numerous times on Reddit and elsewhere of people who are looking for something else besides D&D. The OSR provides that alternative, and even though it's not that big of a market, it still there and that's important.

They only way any alternative to D&D can even match it would need the marketing power of a company like Hasbro. Unless somebody can get Musk's ear, I don't see that happening. But I don't care if what I play isn't "popular", which is ironic IMO.

I remember a time when D&D wasn't popular at all. It was considered "fringe". For me, that was cool. IT was edgy and out of bounds. It was a game that geeks and nerds of all types tended to gravitate to.

Today, D&D is pretty much mainstream. IMO, it has lost it's edge. But at the same time, they recently went all DEI and alienated a portion of their fanbase. It sounds like to me that the folks at WoTC and Hasbro didn't read the room too well.

Congrats.

We all agree that the quality (so long as it falls above a 'not complete garbage' line for the majority) of WotC is irrelevant to its status as most popular RPG.

We also agree there are alternatives to WotC D&D available and that they don't need to be as popular to be successful.

Is there some point we disagree on?

ETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.

You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.

You can stumble across a D&D book just going to Walmart.

The reality is the people that stay in the hobby will find what we older folks have always known: it takes work to do it. It's not free.

We kept this hobby going *long* before the ease of the internet kicked open the gates to gaming. It's less a matter of finding gamers than it is to curate the gamers for the kind of gaming you want to do.

I do get not everyone lives in metropolitan areas where it's more probable to find more players in general. But I guarantee the following:

1) If you are a GM and you care about your gaming and you *want* to run it - there are players out there for it. Go find them by any means necessary.
2) If you can't find them, and you truly believe that you gave it an honest effort, then it is your responsibility to yourself to grow that gaming group yourself.

This has *always* been the law of RPG gaming. And yes, some people are not up to that challenge of overcoming those two barriers.

If you're only a player, then you have no real excuse other than you should start GMing and choose option #2.

Or you drop out of the hobby like many will. And guess, what? *WE* will still be here.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 01:59:20 PMETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.

You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.

A Google search for RPGs other than D&D got this:

https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/

https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/

https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs

https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/

It took zero effort and that was just page 1.

Quote from: tenbones on January 30, 2025, 03:10:06 PM1) If you are a GM and you care about your gaming and you *want* to run it - there are players out there for it. Go find them by any means necessary.
2) If you can't find them, and you truly believe that you gave it an honest effort, then it is your responsibility to yourself to grow that gaming group yourself.

This has *always* been the law of RPG gaming. And yes, some people are not up to that challenge of overcoming those two barriers.

If you're only a player, then you have no real excuse other than you should start GMing and choose option #2.

Or you drop out of the hobby like many will. And guess, what? *WE* will still be here

I wish I could upvote this...so...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quote from: blackstone on January 30, 2025, 03:20:46 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 01:59:20 PMETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.

You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.

A Google search for RPGs other than D&D got this:

https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/

https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/

https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs

https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/

It took zero effort and that was just page 1.

I don't see how this in any way disproves my point. You're still actively looking for an RPG.

You can run across D&D purely passively because it's so ubiquitous. You can see it mentioned on television shows. Do you REALLY think someone who hears "Dungeons & Dragons" for the first time is going to do a Google search for "roleplaying games" (much less rpgs other than D&D) or that they'd put in "Dungeons & Dragons" as their search terms.

I don't (and have never) denied that you can find alternate RPGs if you go looking for them. But I'm not going to pretend that going looking for them is as easy to find as literally finding D&D when you weren't even looking for it; because that's just not true.

When I can literally see a D&D Essentials Kit on the shelf while going down the book aisle at Meijers or Walmart without even looking for it... it is inarguable that D&D is easier to find than any other tabletop RPG.

You don't have to like it, but it's the truth.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 04:26:51 PM

Quote from: blackstone on January 30, 2025, 03:20:46 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 30, 2025, 01:59:20 PMETA: I guess perhaps we disagree on whether being on DriveThru makes it less hard to find than D&D books.

You have to know DriveThru exists to go there. You have to know OSR is a category to search for it.

A Google search for RPGs other than D&D got this:

https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-tabletop-rpgs-different-dungeons-dragons/

https://screenrant.com/tabletop-rpgs-play-arent-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-tabletop-rpg-alternatives-games/

https://gamerant.com/best-tabletop-rpgs-not-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.howtogeek.com/70751/the-best-tabletop-rpgs-that-arent-dungeons-dragons/

https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/best-games/best-tabletop-rpgs

https://alittlebithuman.com/tabletop-rpgs-dungeons-and-dragons/

It took zero effort and that was just page 1.

I don't see how this in any way disproves my point. You're still actively looking for an RPG.

You can run across D&D purely passively because it's so ubiquitous. You can see it mentioned on television shows. Do you REALLY think someone who hears "Dungeons & Dragons" for the first time is going to do a Google search for "roleplaying games" (much less rpgs other than D&D) or that they'd put in "Dungeons & Dragons" as their search terms.

I don't (and have never) denied that you can find alternate RPGs if you go looking for them. But I'm not going to pretend that going looking for them is as easy to find as literally finding D&D when you weren't even looking for it; because that's just not true.

When I can literally see a D&D Essentials Kit on the shelf while going down the book aisle at Meijers or Walmart without even looking for it... it is inarguable that D&D is easier to find than any other tabletop RPG.

You don't have to like it, but it's the truth.

It does disprove your point. If we're going on the assumption that someone already played D&D and wanted to look for an alternative, ANYONE with enough smarts can go on the internet and do a Google search.

Plus, it's not a matter of me liking the prevalence of D&D or not. I don't care. There are alternatives, and some people will gravitate towards those alternatives. Again, the fact they're available is a good thing.

So I'm calling out your bullshit saying "it's not that easy". I proved that it is by a simple web search.

Good day, sir.