Note: Kelsey has since stated clearly that she did in fact borrow mechanics for Shadowdark, though she continues to claim that none of them were from me

I was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

A lot going on behind the scenes like asking her friends to talk about her game, like normal people do?

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 28, 2025, 06:30:48 PMNote: Kelsey has since stated clearly that she did in fact borrow mechanics for Shadowdark, though she continues to claim that none of them were from me

Good day sir, I appreciate your forum very much. Please help me understand your perspective as I suspect I'm missing context, do you require others to cite all inspiration for their works, or are you uniquely bothered by the supposed mass-perception Shadowdark is an entirely original and unique creation in a vacuum?

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 29, 2025, 08:37:41 AM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

A lot going on behind the scenes like asking her friends to talk about her game, like normal people do?

QuoteI think it depends who her "friends" are. One broke-ass gamer telling another to buy his new game doesn't yield KS results like Shadowdark did

But if a gamer has friends in high places (advertising executives, major YouTube personalities who are backed by Hasbro and other companies, rich parents, etc.) it is another matter entirely

if I produce a game and go advertise it on reddit, Dragonsfoot, Enworld, etc. I will be told to fu** off, and not to pimp my product or shill my merchandise on those sites. If I am a young female, the response will be completely opposite.

but even that doesn't explain the success of Shadowdark. Kelsey is the Janet Jackson of the RPG world: a manufactured talent with a lot of great marketing, and not a whole lot of talent.

and again, doesn't mean her game is bad. Just means it is wildly overhyped and didn't deserve anywhere near the response and sales it got. Not even 1/10th

Yeah, the internet and people in general let women get away through life on easy mode, doing favors, letting posts get through without being shut down, because how many women actually write RPG games? But how many men write games?  "oh ANOTHER game written by a man, shut up, go away, you're not worth getting attention" 

Shadowdark is a fine game, its easy enough for the crayon eaters who usually play 5e to enjoy, and all the people on youtube told them to play it too, and its written by a woman! a woman who fits the demographic we want to see represented more! Not only can you support an independent creator but the socially acceptable kind of independent creator!

Peh! I've seen better RPGs for free on RPG blogs.

I'm glad she's successful, she has put a lot of work into it, but the lightning strike of success is so random and mysterious you often see people who you think deserve success not get it.

I again completely disagree with the frustrated angst being vented at Kelsey Dionne for daring to be successful and chip away at WotC's market share. There is absolutely no foul play in asking well-connected friends to help spread the word about their title (if that's even what happened), that's nothing sinister on conspiratorial. It's not Kelsey's fault {INSERT OSR TITLE} didn't take off while hers did, she has done nothing to hurt anyone else, and people should find a more worthy target to complain about.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 29, 2025, 12:51:26 PMI again completely disagree with the frustrated angst being vented at Kelsey Dionne for daring to be successful and chip away at WotC's market share. There is absolutely no foul play in asking well-connected friends to help spread the word about their title (if that's even what happened), that's nothing sinister on conspiratorial. It's not Kelsey's fault {INSERT OSR TITLE} didn't take off while hers did, she has done nothing to hurt anyone else, and people should find a more worthy target to complain about.

Agreed.  Two things can be true at the same time.  Some industry elitists amplified it because of identity politics while genuine rpg fans simultaneously supported it en masse because it scratched an itch they had/was a quality product/struck while the OGL debacle iron was hot.

I bought a copy of the rulebook and it looks interesting, though I haven't played it. As to success and who's deserving - we can argue about it in any endeavor - some great authors never get published while terrible writers get blockbusters. Or movies, or, well pretty much anything in the arts. Sht just happens.

Not knowing anything about this author and what went into publishing it (I discovered it well after the KS was completed), she clearly put a lot of effort into picking and choosing from all the various rules to make what she wanted. She made sure she got good art. She put effort into marketing it. Sure, halo effect and all that - she's a better spokesperson for the product than probably a ton of other creators - and there was probably a timing thing related to the OGL mess.

I'm glad she was successful. I'm sure the next great successful RPG will follow a different path and a crap ton of potentially good RPGs will never become popular. C'est la vie.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 29, 2025, 08:37:41 AM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years. A re-hashed OSR game in a black-and-white book with a torch gimmick and some elements pulled from DCC would not have gotten 1000 copies sold if a guy without connections had written it

Now Shadowdark is not a *bad* game. I've played it at conventions and had some fun. But it is absolutely not some game-changing system which everyone needs to go out and purchase.

The game was heavily hyped by industry insiders, Youtube personalities, and shills on reddit and elsewhere. There was an advertising budget involved as well.

There is just NO way this product goes on to score a 1.3 million dollar Kickstarter, when even the most well-known authors with decades of experience, with more elaborate projects, earn 1/4th of that at best. And projects like Shadows of Esteren, which was gorgeous, innovative, etc. raised 129k in their very successful KS.

I suspect there was a lot going on behind the scenes with this one. And it goes beyond a bunch of thirsty gamers

A lot going on behind the scenes like asking her friends to talk about her game, like normal people do?

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 28, 2025, 06:30:48 PMNote: Kelsey has since stated clearly that she did in fact borrow mechanics for Shadowdark, though she continues to claim that none of them were from me

Good day sir, I appreciate your forum very much. Please help me understand your perspective as I suspect I'm missing context, do you require others to cite all inspiration for their works, or are you uniquely bothered by the supposed mass-perception Shadowdark is an entirely original and unique creation in a vacuum?

The latter. Shadowdark was largely (at least initially) sold to the 5e crowd, not the OSR. And a lot of the 5e influencers were talking about the game as if every one of the many many mechanics that have been in the OSR for in some cases over a decade were BRAND NEW and proof of Kelsey's absolute utter genius, and that therefore Shadowdark was a UNIQUE and REVOLUTIONARY game. When in fact its neither.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years.

I think it was a mix of a few things. She had a decent size following in the 5e scene and had spent a lot of time building up mailing lists and marketing targets for those people. She wasn't starting from zero, marketing-wise. For the Kickstarter, she did some very well placed sponsorships on Youtube. I also think the Kickstarter launched around the time of the WoTC OGL scandal, people were looking for an alternative at that moment(Pathfinder 2e sales went nuts as well). And finally, I think she herself brings a bit of image for the game itself, along with being friends with some other RPG darlings. That's not something I think she cultivated intentionally, it just is what it is.

Tie that together with a pretty good, easy to pickup/run base game and it's not that big of a surprise it did so well. I actually like it, but feel like the way it was play tested(con games) makes it more suited for short lived games. Perfect for running at a store with randoms, not something you wanna run for a 5 year campaign with your friends.

Quote from: Dracones on January 30, 2025, 06:06:32 PM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years.

I think it was a mix of a few things. She had a decent size following in the 5e scene and had spent a lot of time building up mailing lists and marketing targets for those people. She wasn't starting from zero, marketing-wise. For the Kickstarter, she did some very well placed sponsorships on Youtube. I also think the Kickstarter launched around the time of the WoTC OGL scandal, people were looking for an alternative at that moment(Pathfinder 2e sales went nuts as well). And finally, I think she herself brings a bit of image for the game itself, along with being friends with some other RPG darlings. That's not something I think she cultivated intentionally, it just is what it is.

Tie that together with a pretty good, easy to pickup/run base game and it's not that big of a surprise it did so well. I actually like it, but feel like the way it was play tested(con games) makes it more suited for short lived games. Perfect for running at a store with randoms, not something you wanna run for a 5 year campaign with your friends.

If a decent looking woman who has all of her teeth, bathes daily, has a friendly personality, and shares common interests with a whole lot of men; puts together a good product, which is well organized and presented well, succeeds? 

I'm not too surprised.  Men want to do business, with women who aren't bitches.  Another female can do likewise, tomorrow.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 28, 2025, 01:32:34 PM

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 01:27:45 PM1. The tagline is specifically "Old-school gaming, modernized." Which is pretty vague and left a lot of room for the people spreading the game to act like no one had put together 5e advantage/disadvantage, b/x classes, random tables, etc. before.

2. That's highly debatable. The main thing it has is presentation and marketing.

1) No one has done such a combination of mechanics across-the-board. It is a unique product both in its composition and presentation, which leads me to 2) Indeed, presentation is half of anything, and it was well-marketed, and further, enough people concur with its quality to see the game continue to grow and thrive. The Arcane Library Discord hit 10k subs just yesterday. Kelsey has to be doing something of substance right.

That's really just not true. Yes, that specific grouping of mechanics, 5e advantage/disadvantage, plus this particular version of DCC's roll to cast, plus a real time torch gimmick, may not have been placed exactly together in this way. (It may have if you look on Drivethrurpg or blogs long enough.) But there are plenty of BX/5e hybrids, there are plenty of OSR games that implement advantage/disadvantage, there are plenty of games that borrow from DCC, there are plenty of games that do combinations of these kinds of mechanics "across the board." It's not this sweeping universal old school dungeon crawler that's never been tried.

We go back to the presentation thing again. Every single time this stuff gets pointed out, people fall back on "well it was presented better. It was marketed better. All the other OSR games should have done a better job." Something something free market, something something it's popular. Okay, and?

I'm not saying they have to be original or that other games are more original, it's just really annoying when people say they're original > get called on it > go back to "the presentation is original" motte and bailey argument.

To the point of the thread, I'll actually say that the random character advancement is easily one of the weakest parts of the system. I don't like it in Pundit's games either, no offense to him.

More problems with the system no one actually talks about:
*All conditions and special rules in combat are basically handwaved away as "use advantage/disadvantage and common sense".
*Spell and monster descriptions are sparse and unhelpful. Priority was given to increasing the amount of white space on the page instead of utility for gameplay.
*PC Goblins can't be surprised. You know, a major part of the game focused on traveling into the unknown? Just ignore it. The other race abilities aren't much better.
*The real time torch gimmick is probably fun for one shots, but annoying in the long term. It's just that, it's a gimmick. It's immersion breaking and doesn't make sense in the fiction, especially given that stuff in real life, like the pace of the GM's narration or someone getting up for snacks, is going to affect it a lot. You can't have one light source, then light another one in the middle of the timer, it "rides along." I understand why, it would be an additional thing to keep track of and the game should be simple. But if the entire game is focused on the palpable darkness and lighting conditions, you would think there would be more care put into it.
*Compared to a lot of other games, the random tables are anemic. They seem to exist mostly just to hype up people who are unfamiliar with wacky random tables or to establish OSR cred.
*In general it includes watered down versions of things that other games do better. Watered down DCC 0-level funnel, watered down DCC roll to cast, watered down spell mishaps, watered down carousing table, watered down loot tables, watered down 5e stuff. It's all present but it has no depth to it. It's certainly useful at the table and probably easy to run, but there's nothing super compelling that makes me really want to dig into it and play multiple sessions, especially when the random results start to repeat.

The response to this is probably "customize the game for yourself, houserule it." Okay but you're asking me to pay 30-60 dollars for what are essentially a collection of houserules anyway, plus some nice art.

Quote from: Dracones on January 30, 2025, 06:06:32 PM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 28, 2025, 07:34:00 PMI was never able to explain the spectacular success of Shadowdark: there are much better games out there which have been released in the last 4-5 years.

I think it was a mix of a few things. She had a decent size following in the 5e scene and had spent a lot of time building up mailing lists and marketing targets for those people. She wasn't starting from zero, marketing-wise. For the Kickstarter, she did some very well placed sponsorships on Youtube. I also think the Kickstarter launched around the time of the WoTC OGL scandal, people were looking for an alternative at that moment(Pathfinder 2e sales went nuts as well). And finally, I think she herself brings a bit of image for the game itself, along with being friends with some other RPG darlings. That's not something I think she cultivated intentionally, it just is what it is.

Tie that together with a pretty good, easy to pickup/run base game and it's not that big of a surprise it did so well. I actually like it, but feel like the way it was play tested(con games) makes it more suited for short lived games. Perfect for running at a store with randoms, not something you wanna run for a 5 year campaign with your friends.

A couple thoughts on this

1. She was selling some 5e PDFs on her site and elsewhere for a few years. I had never heard of her, but I don't travel in the 5e crowd. Nothing wrong with her stuff, it looks decent.
2. The KS generated over 1.3 million. That is roughly 30,000 people purchasing the game. I am pretty certain, based on other people I know who are selling RPGs, have much larger sites and marketplaces, that she had nowhere near 30k customers in the Arcane Library, and probably had a couple thousand people in her mailing list tops.
3. No one cared about the OGL issue within 5e circles save for a handful of creators and the OSR crowd. It was a non-factor.

She sold the game through influencer farming (see my post on this), an advertising budget that may have been supplemented by another entity, fake shill accounts on reddit and many other sites (and some no fake), and clever promotion.

None of that is illegal, but let's not pretend this game was successful on its merits: it was a big success because of marketing hype and a female author.

Quote from: Spobo on January 31, 2025, 08:32:58 AMMore problems with the system no one actually talks about:
*All conditions and special rules in combat are basically handwaved away as "use advantage/disadvantage and common sense".
*Spell and monster descriptions are sparse and unhelpful. Priority was given to increasing the amount of white space on the page instead of utility for gameplay.
*PC Goblins can't be surprised. You know, a major part of the game focused on traveling into the unknown? Just ignore it. The other race abilities aren't much better.
*The real time torch gimmick is probably fun for one shots, but annoying in the long term. It's just that, it's a gimmick. It's immersion breaking and doesn't make sense in the fiction, especially given that stuff in real life, like the pace of the GM's narration or someone getting up for snacks, is going to affect it a lot. You can't have one light source, then light another one in the middle of the timer, it "rides along." I understand why, it would be an additional thing to keep track of and the game should be simple. But if the entire game is focused on the palpable darkness and lighting conditions, you would think there would be more care put into it.
*Compared to a lot of other games, the random tables are anemic. They seem to exist mostly just to hype up people who are unfamiliar with wacky random tables or to establish OSR cred.
*In general it includes watered down versions of things that other games do better. Watered down DCC 0-level funnel, watered down DCC roll to cast, watered down spell mishaps, watered down carousing table, watered down loot tables, watered down 5e stuff. It's all present but it has no depth to it. It's certainly useful at the table and probably easy to run, but there's nothing super compelling that makes me really want to dig into it and play multiple sessions, especially when the random results start to repeat.

I mostly disagree. The game serves its purpose as a rules-lite experience for dynamic storytelling. Is it just to my taste? No, I give it a 6/10 and dislike the torch thing too, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been a well-received product for its merits. It certainly has.

Quote from: Spobo on January 31, 2025, 08:32:58 AMyou're asking me to pay 30-60 dollars for what are essentially a collection of houserules anyway, plus some nice art.

... You mean like every single non-Dungeons and Dragons product ever?

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 31, 2025, 09:56:20 AMNone of that is illegal, but let's not pretend this game was successful on its merits: it was a big success because of marketing hype and a female author.

Hard disagree. It's a fine game, and a fine-looking game, created by and promoted on behalf of a decent, well-humored woman. No matter how many times you undersell it, it's still not Kelsey's fault your favorite indie game didn't do as well.