Did Shadow Kelsey Dionne Rip Off the RPGPundit?

Spobo · January 28, 2025, 12:47:00 PM

I don't think she specifically took it from Pundit games and it's possible Pundit borrowed it from somewhere else too.

However as I've said many times, I find it irritating how many people think that the ideas in the game are original. If you call them on it they'll backtrack (like the people in this thread are doing) and claim that no one ever said that, the game is good because of its layout, etc. but many people did in fact market it that way to 5e players who didn't know about the OSR.

SmallMountaineer · January 28, 2025, 12:53:45 PM

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 12:47:00 PMI don't think she specifically took it from Pundit games and it's possible Pundit borrowed it from somewhere else too.

However as I've said many times, I find it irritating how many people think that the ideas in the game are original. If you call them on it they'll backtrack (like the people in this thread are doing) and claim that no one ever said that, the game is good because of its layout, etc. but many people did in fact market it that way to 5e players who didn't know about the OSR.

But regardless of its mechanical inspiration, 1) It has always pitched itself as 5e-gone-OSR, so to speak, and 2) It is a unique tapestry of mechanics that works reasonably well for its intended purpose.

RNGm · January 28, 2025, 01:07:24 PM

Even if every single individual element in the game has been seen somewhere else at some point in time, the act of putting them all together in a single product that is not just viable but wildy successful product is proof of creating something new that the market had a need that was not being met. She's not "ripping off" anyone just because she's using just a similar mechanic unless she copypasted it over.

Venka · January 28, 2025, 01:16:46 PM

Quote from: Corolinth on January 28, 2025, 11:29:58 AMLook, however influential you think Pundit is, the fact remains the entire OSR is small potatoes compared to the video game industry. Even if we restrict ourselves to just RPGs and action RPGs, we're talking about orders of magnitude in difference.

Sure, but she's a tabletop RPG designer, not some rando.

Quotejust like she got the torch mechanic from Zork.

Does Zork even qualify as a video game? You can play it on like, /dev/tty or something. Assuredly the huge cultural impact of video games does not include Zork in the same way it includes anything mainstream and from the current century.

Spobo · January 28, 2025, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 28, 2025, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 12:47:00 PMI don't think she specifically took it from Pundit games and it's possible Pundit borrowed it from somewhere else too.

However as I've said many times, I find it irritating how many people think that the ideas in the game are original. If you call them on it they'll backtrack (like the people in this thread are doing) and claim that no one ever said that, the game is good because of its layout, etc. but many people did in fact market it that way to 5e players who didn't know about the OSR.

But regardless of its mechanical inspiration, 1) It has always pitched itself as 5e-gone-OSR, so to speak, and 2) It is a unique tapestry of mechanics that works reasonably well for its intended purpose.

1. The tagline is specifically "Old-school gaming, modernized." Which is pretty vague and left a lot of room for the people spreading the game to act like no one had put together 5e advantage/disadvantage, b/x classes, random tables, etc. before.

2. That's highly debatable. The main thing it has is presentation and marketing.

SmallMountaineer · January 28, 2025, 01:32:34 PM

Quote from: Spobo on January 28, 2025, 01:27:45 PM1. The tagline is specifically "Old-school gaming, modernized." Which is pretty vague and left a lot of room for the people spreading the game to act like no one had put together 5e advantage/disadvantage, b/x classes, random tables, etc. before.

2. That's highly debatable. The main thing it has is presentation and marketing.

1) No one has done such a combination of mechanics across-the-board. It is a unique product both in its composition and presentation, which leads me to 2) Indeed, presentation is half of anything, and it was well-marketed, and further, enough people concur with its quality to see the game continue to grow and thrive. The Arcane Library Discord hit 10k subs just yesterday. Kelsey has to be doing something of substance right.

tenbones · January 28, 2025, 01:36:23 PM

wait wait wait...

Let's not get CRAZY here.

This *is* still D&D Basic here. I'm not even an OSR guy, and I can crack open Shadow Dark OR Pundits stuff and clearly see it's just D&D with different spices.

At this point this discussion is arguing about splitting the pubic-hairs of angels dancing on the end of a pin for its own sake. WTF is going on here?

Nice try LOL.

SmallMountaineer · January 28, 2025, 01:43:18 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 01:36:23 PMwait wait wait...

Let's not get CRAZY here.

This *is* still D&D Basic here. I'm not even an OSR guy, and I can crack open Shadow Dark OR Pundits stuff and clearly see it's just D&D with different spices.

At this point this discussion is arguing about splitting the pubic-hairs of angels dancing on the end of a pin for its own sake. WTF is going on here?

Nice try LOL.

The topic was whether or not Kelsey Dionne is a "rip-off." I've defended her and the Shadowdark product, as people continue to take umbrage with its success, when in their opinion {Insert Favorite OSR Product} should've hit it big instead, and it just isn't fair because she's a girl, and she has too many friends with YouTube channels, and lol she's a lesbian, and all these other juvenile complaints.

tenbones · January 28, 2025, 02:06:17 PM

No I get that.

I don't think anyone needs defending. I think thread is silly because *anyone* that believes *anyone* in the OSR is ripping anyone else off has other motives entirely.

The OSR IS D&D. There is nothing to "rip off".

SmallMountaineer · January 28, 2025, 02:11:42 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 02:06:17 PMNo I get that.

I don't think anyone needs defending. I think thread is silly because *anyone* that believes *anyone* in the OSR is ripping anyone else off has other motives entirely.

The OSR IS D&D. There is nothing to "rip off".

Precisely my point earlier, sir.

Jaeger · January 28, 2025, 02:20:44 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 10:47:58 AMI've started using the eggs of chickens in a square bowl, and using green sea-salt and a pinch of pepper using my thumb and ring-finger.

I beat them with a spoon.

I call it "scrambled chicken-babies". It's delicious. You should try it.

^This^

In my opinion; ShadowDark, and Lion and Dragons similar mechanics are a great example of convergent design.

I don't think Pundit has really made that big a deal of it. He's gotten far more flak for daring to criticize the hype around the game when it was released.

That being said, if you look at the fighter listings in L&D and SD side by side; Pundit could have made a MUCH bigger deal about the similarities than he has. Any leftist rpg designer would have been crying 'ripoff' to high-heaven.

He doesn't really care. So there's no reason to be offended on his behalf.

Quasquetonian · January 28, 2025, 02:29:46 PM

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson on January 27, 2025, 10:32:26 PMI am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this?

No. The first edition of Gamma World did it in 1978.

World_Warrior · January 28, 2025, 02:51:25 PM

Mordheim had a random benefits chart for advancement. So, it's existed in wargames for decades as well.

RNGm · January 28, 2025, 02:54:04 PM

Quote from: Quasquetonian on January 28, 2025, 02:29:46 PM
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson on January 27, 2025, 10:32:26 PMI am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this?

No. The first edition of Gamma World did it in 1978.

Gak! She stole it from an even older source then! And so did the pundit!?!?

Obviously not true that any of it is theft unless its directly copypasted otherwise every single RPG would have to be paying a trivial license to D&D for rolling dice that aren't d6's for a character. It's a ridiculous standard/expectation to think that every rpg needs to reinvent the wheel when frankly a different tire tread and hubcap pattern is plenty enough differentiation.

RPGPundit · January 28, 2025, 06:29:57 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 27, 2025, 11:30:32 PMYou are aware Pundit has talked about this system before? I've presume he read it, and never once did he mention being "ripped off" or plagiarized.

Quite the opposite actually. Typically when he reviews a game and finds a mechanic he popularized he often gives it praise. the OSR is built on TSR era D&D and extrapolating it's design philosophy. plagiarism is a hard accusation to make when everyone is basically copying each other and mechanics come down to preference.

Yes. The OSR is about creating ideas and techniques in game design that other people should then use if they are good.
The problem I had was how Shadowdark was appearing to be promoted as though all the mechanics in it were radical new concepts, when almost all of them were in my Lion & Dragon YEARS earlier, and in other OSR games.