I just got my copy of Shadow Dark in the mail today and I noticed something. The experience system uses a table that the player rolls on to determine bonuses to various attributes and abilities. My copy of Lion & Dragon uses a very similar system.

I am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this? Did Kelsey Dionne "borrow" the idea for Shadowdark?

First, I've seen random tables before. They were in video games, but that's not relevant. 

Second, it's a moot point.  You cannot copyright game rules.

Still, you're not wrong by pointing out that Dionne didn't invent a single new idea.  Her game is just her favorite bits of other games welded together. 

It's very well written, though.  Lots of people don't bother with making sure all relevant information fits onto two open pages.  Her book does.

But, the general consensus seems to be that her game is good, but not great.   It was very well marketed, which is why it sold well.  This is not surprising when considering her wife (yes, lesbians, but not obnoxious about it) works in advertising.

You are aware Pundit has talked about this system before? I've presume he read it, and never once did he mention being "ripped off" or plagiarized.

Quite the opposite actually. Typically when he reviews a game and finds a mechanic he popularized he often gives it praise. the OSR is built on TSR era D&D and extrapolating it's design philosophy. plagiarism is a hard accusation to make when everyone is basically copying each other and mechanics come down to preference.

Look at the magic system with critical failure tables that is a simplified version of DCC magic system.

Shadowdark is rehashed OSR which is rehashed BECMI.  Everyone steals from everyone, you can't copyright game mechanics.

Didn't that Wonderland module by the porn guy do the random stuff on level up? IIRC, it had an Alice class (or something like that)

Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG did this in 2010.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 27, 2025, 11:25:44 PMFirst, I've seen random tables before. They were in video games, but that's not relevant. 

To the contrary, it's very relevant. I've noticed in a lot of discussion on this forum that people like to pretend video games don't exist, but they're a much bigger industry than tabletop gaming. It's more likely that Kelsey took the idea from a video game than for her to even be aware of Pundit, let alone have taken the idea from something he wrote.

To pretend someone in the OSR doesn't know about Pundit is pretty risible.  Still, whether she came up with a given mechanic independently or used an existing known thing as a template is only important when refuting claims like "Shadowdark is totally its own thing guys with all these never-before-seen things in it!"- which is a critique of the person making the erroneous claim, not of Kelsey.

I completely disagree with the harsh, accusatory language being thrown around in here.

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson on January 27, 2025, 10:32:26 PMI just got my copy of Shadow Dark in the mail today and I noticed something. The experience system uses a table that the player rolls on to determine bonuses to various attributes and abilities. My copy of Lion & Dragon uses a very similar system.

I am not aware of another RPG that uses the same or a similar system. Was Lion and Dragon the first RPG to use this? Did Kelsey Dionne "borrow" the idea for Shadowdark?

Was Kelsey Dionne possibly inspired by something else? Sure. What about it, and how deep does one follow that rabbit hole? At what point do we accuse virtually everything of being rip-offs for using polyhedral dice? Tabletop Roleplaying is an industry built on several pillars iterated on in literally hundreds of nuanced manners, but the core concept of gathering around to imagine and verbally express actions in a fictional setting using random numbers and probability is consistent across every game I can think of. I'm not ready to cut the descendants of the old Prussian General Staff royalty checks because we "ripped-off" their tabletop wargaming.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 27, 2025, 11:25:44 PMStill, you're not wrong by pointing out that Dionne didn't invent a single new idea.  Her game is just her favorite bits of other games welded together. 

It's very well written, though.  Lots of people don't bother with making sure all relevant information fits onto two open pages.  Her book does.

But, the general consensus seems to be that her game is good, but not great.  It was very well marketed, which is why it sold well.  This is not surprising when considering her wife (yes, lesbians, but not obnoxious about it) works in advertising.

If it were so that Kelsey had no original ideas expressed in Shadowdark - and I'm not saying it is so - there would still be absolutely nothing wrong with the product, because she would have sowed it together in a unique fashion, expressed (as you point out) in a very clean, digestible format. It's not like she copypasta'd the 5e SRD and just took a butcher knife to it and added spooky art.

I generally do not appreciate the bitter jealousy I keep seeing around here for Shadowdark. It is no foul on Kelsey Dionne's part she produced a solid Core Rulebook and potentially leveraged contacts in the media to promote it. Do not blame her for being likeable and having friends, nor for her skills in producing a very neat, readable work. Do not blame her because OSR Product A48-E3 did not take off to the moon while Shadowdark did.

I don't know if she ripped off anyone, but it does seem that women have an easier time getting attention than men, even if both are equally good at game design, usually because people like seeing boobs in thumbnails.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on January 28, 2025, 10:11:18 AMI don't know if she ripped off anyone, but it does seem that women have an easier time getting attention than men, even if both are equally good at game design, usually because people like seeing boobs in thumbnails.

I understand and agree with the gist of your statement - that men have an innate desire to provide for women - but want to point out Kelsey has never once come close to wielding sex appeal that I have ever seen.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 28, 2025, 10:15:47 AM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on January 28, 2025, 10:11:18 AMI don't know if she ripped off anyone, but it does seem that women have an easier time getting attention than men, even if both are equally good at game design, usually because people like seeing boobs in thumbnails.

I understand and agree with the gist of your statement - that men have an innate desire to provide for women - but want to point out Kelsey has never once come close to wielding sex appeal that I have ever seen.

There are women who abuse sex appeal to get more views, and there are women who don't,  and both types of women still benefit from appeal and algorithmic "pushing"

Quote from: Venka on January 28, 2025, 09:08:31 AMTo pretend someone in the OSR doesn't know about Pundit is pretty risible.

I don't find it even implausible, let alone risible. Kelsey Dione is relatively new entry into the OSR scene, and part of the DungeonCraft/RuneHammer/Questing Beast/DM Scotty Youtube/Nu-SR circle. Those people rarely if ever mention Pundit in their videos. I can confirm Questing Beast knows Pundit exists because he occasionally posts here, but I've never seen any of the others show a sign of being aware of him.

If I had to guess, I'd say the balance of probability is that she'd at least heard the name RPGPundit before publishing Shadowdark, but I wouldn't be surprised if all she knew was "he's that edgy right-wing guy that makes historical games".

I've started using the eggs of chickens in a square bowl, and using green sea-salt and a pinch of pepper using my thumb and ring-finger.

I beat them with a spoon.

I call it "scrambled chicken-babies". It's delicious. You should try it.

Quote from: Venka on January 28, 2025, 09:08:31 AMTo pretend someone in the OSR doesn't know about Pundit is pretty risible.  Still, whether she came up with a given mechanic independently or used an existing known thing as a template is only important when refuting claims like "Shadowdark is totally its own thing guys with all these never-before-seen things in it!"- which is a critique of the person making the erroneous claim, not of Kelsey.

Look, however influential you think Pundit is, the fact remains the entire OSR is small potatoes compared to the video game industry. Even if we restrict ourselves to just RPGs and action RPGs, we're talking about orders of magnitude in difference.

We're also talking about a mechanic that has been around in video games since at least the late 80s.

Did Kelsey rip off Pundit? Maybe, but not this mechanic. She got this one from Fire Emblem, just like she got the torch mechanic from Zork.