Section 31 is to Star Trek what Rebel Moon is to Star Wars...except Section 31 is supposed to be authentic Trek.

QuoteAlso nearly all the monster characters, and Waller, are psychotic and why would anyone root for most of them?

They're catering to same mindset that makes a hero of a guy who murders an insurance exec on the street.

They've spent so much effort dehumanizing their opposition that they literally cannot see their protagonists behaving as they do as mentally deranged. They commit violence on "acceptable targets" so that makes them heroic.

At least My Adventures With Superman and the mainline DC Comics recognize Waller is a psychopath (in MAWS she's ultimately wrong about everything, is shown to be hopelessly out of her league when the real villain shows up, and ends up a fugitive from the law after her attempted power grab that nearly got the world killed... in the mainline comics she tried to take over the planet in the name of "security" and ended up locked in solitary confinement for life in the same facility she intended to lock every hero on the planet into after a mind wipe to remove every last bit of useful knowledge about hero identities from her brain).

She's been really overused and hopefully she's headed for an extended vacation from media for awhile.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 10:51:59 AMThey commit violence on "acceptable targets" so that makes them heroic.

This can also be said about numerous classic vigilantes, such as Punisher and Ghost Rider. It does strain *a lot* when they start spreading it around with a broader brush.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 11:16:55 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 10:51:59 AMThey commit violence on "acceptable targets" so that makes them heroic.

This can also be said about numerous classic vigilantes, such as Punisher and Ghost Rider. It does strain *a lot* when they start spreading it around with a broader brush.

The Punisher was originally meant to be a villain though, a counterpoint to Spider-Man's heroism who took things too far. Even in his best interpretations he's not generally portrayed as heroic so much as "less bad than those he kills."

I'd similarly say that, when properly employed, Ghost Rider falls into the supernatural horror genre more than the superheroic genre.

As an occasion villain protagonist (the darker side of wish fulfillment) such characters are fine. It's, as you note, when EVERY hero is portrayed this way that it definitely starts to grate.

Worse, at least for me, is when they start being presented as actual heroes for their actions (as opposed to just "less bad than the other guy") who deserve to be publically praised (versus the more typical "returns to some anonymous private life" you often see for such protagonists if they survive the story) that I think the message turns corrosive.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 10:51:59 AMShe's been really overused and hopefully she's headed for an extended vacation from media for awhile.

We should be so lucky. DC will bring her back.

System duplicated my post so will just repurpose this one.

Looking back... I honestly can not say I have liked any of Gunns movies so far.

Guardians of the Galaxy was ok-ish. And thats about it for me.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 11:16:55 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 10:51:59 AMThey commit violence on "acceptable targets" so that makes them heroic.

This can also be said about numerous classic vigilantes, such as Punisher and Ghost Rider. It does strain *a lot* when they start spreading it around with a broader brush.

Punisher was if recall right, mostly targeting gangsters and mafia type foes. And was seen by the populace at large and most heroes as borderline, if not outright, villain. He mostly deals with murderers, drug dealers and the like. Depending on the writer.

Ghost Rider actually never killed anyone till near the end of the original run when the demon took over. The new Daniel Ketch Ghost Rider refrained from killing anyone human, monsters and especially demonic types were not so fortunate. Even during the Midnight Sons phase he was still that way and clashed with characters like Blade who would kill anyone.

I used to collect/read both. Even had a few of the 2099 Ghost Rider.

God only knows what sort of mess they made of the character after that.

Punisher started out as a Spider-Man villain, but then latched onto the wave of "one man army" movies from Schwarzenegger and Stallone, particularly Commando (1985). There were also a lot of male adventure novels with one man army heroes at the time, like the Mack Bolan "Executioner" books.

Quote from: Lurkndog on January 27, 2025, 04:14:35 PMlike the Mack Bolan "Executioner" books.

The Executioner started in the late 60s. They were in our local book shop back in the 70s.

The similarities to the later Punisher are interesting.

Quote from: Lurkndog on January 27, 2025, 04:14:35 PMPunisher started out as a Spider-Man villain, but then latched onto the wave of "one man army" movies from Schwarzenegger and Stallone, particularly Commando (1985). There were also a lot of male adventure novels with one man army heroes at the time, like the Mack Bolan "Executioner" books.

The Executioner Predates the Punisher by a few years and Gerry Conway has admitted to "borrowing" from it to create Frank.