How many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.

A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 10:55:59 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.

A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.

In fact, the observation of an event demonstrating the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the definition of "time."

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 26, 2025, 11:05:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 10:55:59 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.

A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.

In fact, the observation of an event demonstrating the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the definition of "time."

correlation =/= causation

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 12:48:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 26, 2025, 11:05:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 10:55:59 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.

A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.

In fact, the observation of an event demonstrating the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the definition of "time."

correlation =/= causation

"Eppur si muove."

This was a really good video. I knew about the Satanic Panic and had a general inkling it had been caused by grifters of some sort, but never had the names to do anything like a sensible search.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 12:52:07 PMThey were wrong about D&D (and I was right), but they were right about the price of an aggressively secular "progressive" world, and I was completely wrong.

Let me speak as someone on the religious right: religious communities have fools who are easily manipulated and more than a few grifters, but there are also metaphorical prophets who can see social forces working decades in advance. My own example has nothing to do with the Satanic Panic, but Francis Shaeffer's How Should We Then Live book/ video series. The later sections which pivot from historical study to future projections practically spelled out large stretches of the Democrat playbook from 2010 to 2025.

The book was written in 1975.

Returning to the moral slippery slope; liberalism of the 90s and early 2000s had a fatal flaw in that it constantly underestimated the human potential for malice and corruption. Christian religious figures especially tend to be much more pessimistic about human behavior, with doctrines and beliefs ranging from original sin to spiritual warfare.

It's my general opinion that liberalism of the 00s was pushed down by people wanting power. And I don't just mean politicians; Anita Sarkeesian wanted reputation and influence and was more than willing to stretch the truth to get it. Humpty Dumpty was pushed. But at the same time, Humpty Dumpty wasn't exactly braced against anything to stop from getting pushed over, so Humpty Dumpty was definitely going to fall. It was just a question of how and when and who was going to try to capitalize on the power grab.

The shocking thing isn't that it happened, but that it basically happened the moment liberals thought the religious right was out of the way. There was no hesitation; this was premeditated action. In fact, part of the problem they had is that they got impatient and did it too soon. And that speaks volumes to the religious people having the generally better understanding of humanity than liberals.

Fortunately, the right also changed, including the religious right. Being forced to become more ecumenical to operate as a voting bloc meant that they gradually became more focused on the core common issues, and less likely to go nuts about someone playing with miniatures and strange dice.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 27, 2025, 07:21:08 AMFortunately, the right also changed, including the religious right. Being forced to become more ecumenical to operate as a voting bloc meant that they gradually became more focused on the core common issues, and less likely to go nuts about someone playing with miniatures and strange dice.

I don't know that it was so much the Right changing (or even that they were the prime mover in the persecution), so much as it was the vehicle that the moral busybodies (what we today call Karens) were using and have since moved on to more modern venues to assert authority over other people's lives.

Remember, Tipper Gore was one of the bigger voices behind the "Moral Majority." It was only the Right in the sense that it valued religion, but in terms of politics, it spread from extreme Republicans to the most radical of Democrats.

These puritanicals glommed onto Christianity because until recently, it was THE vehicle for exerting influence over American society. The Scolding Church Lady was a real thing. But with rise of The State now as the prime influence over society the Scolds abandoned conservative religion for petitioning the State to crush those who refuse to be as miserable as they are.

And that's the common thread between the scolds of The Satanic Panic and the modern WokeScold infesting modern RPGs... miserable cat ladies using whichever was the effective lever of power for the time trying to ruin everyone else's fun because they're miserable and want everyone else to be too.

Quote from: Brad on January 23, 2025, 10:20:04 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 23, 2025, 06:51:45 PMThe 700 club was pretty intensely on the anti-D&D train even well after the Satanic Panic ended. One of my favorite PSAs they used to run: https://youtu.be/kDJ1UOpxjt4?si=-21YOkBsnR3Ahtaw

That game looks super badass compared to a bunch of nerds playing D&D. Was this supposed to deter anyone?

No kidding. That's how we started. Now... we've reached apotheosis.

https://youtu.be/R0S8JZ6YO5c?si=tQF8kC4vQ9mNdLV-

Quote from: Fheredin on January 26, 2025, 10:20:25 PMReturning to the moral slippery slope; liberalism of the 90s and early 2000s had a fatal flaw in that it constantly underestimated the human potential for malice and corruption. Christian religious figures especially tend to be much more pessimistic about human behavior, with doctrines and beliefs ranging from original sin to spiritual warfare.

It's my general opinion that liberalism of the 00s was pushed down by people wanting power. And I don't just mean politicians; Anita Sarkeesian wanted reputation and influence and was more than willing to stretch the truth to get it. Humpty Dumpty was pushed. But at the same time, Humpty Dumpty wasn't exactly braced against anything to stop from getting pushed over, so Humpty Dumpty was definitely going to fall. It was just a question of how and when and who was going to try to capitalize on the power grab.

The shocking thing isn't that it happened, but that it basically happened the moment liberals thought the religious right was out of the way. There was no hesitation; this was premeditated action. In fact, part of the problem they had is that they got impatient and did it too soon. And that speaks volumes to the religious people having the generally better understanding of humanity than liberals.

There are a lot of liberal religious people. Both in the 1990s and today, being religious in general isn't a great predictor of Democrat/Republican - no better than gender or race.

Type of religion is a much better predictor. Evangelical Protestant skews strongly Republican, while Jewish or historically-black Protestant skews Democrat. Catholics are close to 50/50 currently.

In the 1990s, there was a lot of positivity in general about future progress, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the spread of democracy. This lead to Americans in general having a more rosy view of humanity. Many of the more overly optimistic views were dashed with 9/11. On the other hand, that was a result of much of the negativity of the 1980s being shown wrong.

In general, whoever currently has the most power will use the most popular levers to try to exert control over the population. That's a given. The big question is how violent and how effective the control is.

I'm personally more pessimistic now than in the late 1990s, particular because of the effectiveness of social media as a tool of manipulation. Still, I have hope that people will organize to rein that in - maybe not in the next few years, but over decades.

Quote from: jhkim on January 27, 2025, 12:03:25 PMI'm personally more pessimistic now than in the late 1990s, particular because of the effectiveness of social media as a tool of manipulation. Still, I have hope that people will organize to rein that in - maybe not in the next few years, but over decades.

Twitter's emancipation is a good sign.

Wait til the AI cults start organizing.

Quote from: jhkim on January 27, 2025, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on January 26, 2025, 10:20:25 PMReturning to the moral slippery slope; liberalism of the 90s and early 2000s had a fatal flaw in that it constantly underestimated the human potential for malice and corruption. Christian religious figures especially tend to be much more pessimistic about human behavior, with doctrines and beliefs ranging from original sin to spiritual warfare.

It's my general opinion that liberalism of the 00s was pushed down by people wanting power. And I don't just mean politicians; Anita Sarkeesian wanted reputation and influence and was more than willing to stretch the truth to get it. Humpty Dumpty was pushed. But at the same time, Humpty Dumpty wasn't exactly braced against anything to stop from getting pushed over, so Humpty Dumpty was definitely going to fall. It was just a question of how and when and who was going to try to capitalize on the power grab.

The shocking thing isn't that it happened, but that it basically happened the moment liberals thought the religious right was out of the way. There was no hesitation; this was premeditated action. In fact, part of the problem they had is that they got impatient and did it too soon. And that speaks volumes to the religious people having the generally better understanding of humanity than liberals.

There are a lot of liberal religious people. Both in the 1990s and today, being religious in general isn't a great predictor of Democrat/Republican - no better than gender or race.

Type of religion is a much better predictor. Evangelical Protestant skews strongly Republican, while Jewish or historically-black Protestant skews Democrat. Catholics are close to 50/50 currently.

In the 1990s, there was a lot of positivity in general about future progress, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the spread of democracy. This lead to Americans in general having a more rosy view of humanity. Many of the more overly optimistic views were dashed with 9/11. On the other hand, that was a result of much of the negativity of the 1980s being shown wrong.

In general, whoever currently has the most power will use the most popular levers to try to exert control over the population. That's a given. The big question is how violent and how effective the control is.

I'm personally more pessimistic now than in the late 1990s, particular because of the effectiveness of social media as a tool of manipulation. Still, I have hope that people will organize to rein that in - maybe not in the next few years, but over decades.

Being blunt; liberal religious people have a long history of being practically a non-factor in politics. For decades abortion has been a Catholic issue where the leadership and teachers expressed clear strongly negative views while the laity generally dismisses their leadership almost out of hand. And this kind of phenomenon is far from unique to Catholics (although they may have a worse case of it than Protestants on average.) I have to conclude that for many religious liberals, unless they are in church leadership, the religion yields to liberalism practically categorically. And I suppose it's worth noting that religious liberalism is less of a thing after COVID, anyways; lockdowns ended a great deal of church attendance, with liberal churches taking a disproportionate loss.

That said, it is generally my conclusion that I don't want to sit around and do nothing as the internet gets worse. Sure, we have islands of the internet yesteryear like this site, but we also have a great deal of sites where things are actively getting worse. And by worse, I don't mean a rise of liberalism. I would be fine with liberalism if they stuck to their guns on the inclusive mandate from 15-20 years ago. I mean replacing rational discussion with a midwit inquisition like you see in places like Bluesky and TBP.

It's my conclusion that to make an internet community which can both stand the pressures of this era and to stand the needs of the future, you need to discuss monetization, governance, and sustainability all in a single social contract and have a critical mass of users understand all three pillars simultaneously. Most web communities talk one, maybe two.

For example, X's big problem right now is that they don't have great ways to monetize. TBP's big problem right now is that the community's governance has no consequences for mishandling platform governance, and has turned into a sandwich of sewage as a result. Everyone on smaller websites are getting their finances rug-pulled right now because banner advertisement revenue rates on most websites are through the floor.

This is also the core reason for "enshitification." Websites and web services start with only one pillar well defined, but when they need to bring another of these pillars online, it disrupts the social contract that current users are expecting. You have to pass all three parts of the social contract of the website simultaneously.

And I do want to emphasize sustainability as a subtle pillar most people will miss on their first brainstorm. Sustainability is what will eventually kill Youtube and Google, with their absolutely bananas storage demands, and it's a key reason I think that stuff like decentralized hosting on IPFS or ARWEAVE or directly on a blockchain is functionally unobtainium. If you try to host a web community on something like ARWEAVE and storage prices sneeze? There goes your community. Sustainability is one of those concerns that doesn't matter until it's suddenly the only thing that matters.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 09:20:59 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 27, 2025, 07:21:08 AMFortunately, the right also changed, including the religious right. Being forced to become more ecumenical to operate as a voting bloc meant that they gradually became more focused on the core common issues, and less likely to go nuts about someone playing with miniatures and strange dice.

I don't know that it was so much the Right changing (or even that they were the prime mover in the persecution), so much as it was the vehicle that the moral busybodies (what we today call Karens) were using and have since moved on to more modern venues to assert authority over other people's lives.

Remember, Tipper Gore was one of the bigger voices behind the "Moral Majority." It was only the Right in the sense that it valued religion, but in terms of politics, it spread from extreme Republicans to the most radical of Democrats.

These puritanicals glommed onto Christianity because until recently, it was THE vehicle for exerting influence over American society. The Scolding Church Lady was a real thing. But with rise of The State now as the prime influence over society the Scolds abandoned conservative religion for petitioning the State to crush those who refuse to be as miserable as they are.

And that's the common thread between the scolds of The Satanic Panic and the modern WokeScold infesting modern RPGs... miserable cat ladies using whichever was the effective lever of power for the time trying to ruin everyone else's fun because they're miserable and want everyone else to be too.

Well said!