Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 24, 2025, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 23, 2025, 11:02:42 PM

Quote from: erc1971 on January 23, 2025, 04:56:22 PMYesterday on his Facebook account he posted about an RPG he really liked because he was all about "punching Nazi's."  We all know what that is code for. 

Everything isn't a code.  Sometimes, people just mean what they say.

I get that.  I think what Eric 1971 meant, by "code for" is that "punch a Nazi" really means, "punch someone with whom I disagree so I call a Nazi".  But I think that "punch" part isn't code, but literal.

Exactly this.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 24, 2025, 06:44:24 PMI get that.  I think what Eric 1971 meant, by "code for" is that "punch a Nazi" really means, "punch someone with whom I disagree so I call a Nazi".  But I think that "punch" part isn't code, but literal.

It's also possible that he was speaking literally and talking about one of the many ttrpgs that use Nazis as adversaries. 

This kind of accusation so common and made with so little basis that I am going to need more than a second hand account to believe it.  I have seen what people said misrepresented way too many times for me to believe this sort of accusation without seeing the original comments.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 25, 2025, 12:13:06 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 24, 2025, 06:44:24 PMI get that.  I think what Eric 1971 meant, by "code for" is that "punch a Nazi" really means, "punch someone with whom I disagree so I call a Nazi".  But I think that "punch" part isn't code, but literal.

It's also possible that he was speaking literally and talking about one of the many ttrpgs that use Nazis as adversaries. 

This kind of accusation so common and made with so little basis that I am going to need more than a second hand account to believe it.  I have seen what people said misrepresented way too many times for me to believe this sort of accusation without seeing the original comments.

Which is why I am bummed the post in question was deleted.  And as I said earlier, I understand if you need more.  I am just reporting on what I saw.

Quote from: erc1971 on January 25, 2025, 12:20:20 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 25, 2025, 12:13:06 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 24, 2025, 06:44:24 PMI get that.  I think what Eric 1971 meant, by "code for" is that "punch a Nazi" really means, "punch someone with whom I disagree so I call a Nazi".  But I think that "punch" part isn't code, but literal.

It's also possible that he was speaking literally and talking about one of the many ttrpgs that use Nazis as adversaries. 

This kind of accusation so common and made with so little basis that I am going to need more than a second hand account to believe it.  I have seen what people said misrepresented way too many times for me to believe this sort of accusation without seeing the original comments.

Which is why I am bummed the post in question was deleted.  And as I said earlier, I understand if you need more.  I am just reporting on what I saw.

Dang it.  Seth's commentary video on the Tomb of Horrors, on YT, is crazy funny.  Now I realize he's a questionable dude.  Dadgumit.

I like Seth and I find 90% of his content both useful, funny and a-political. The rest doesn't interest me.

Also, I checked that BlueSky post. It clearly states:

...Some RPGs hem and haw and twist their hands trying to make bad guys without saying they're all evil, other games are all about punching the shit out of nazis.

If I want to find a "code", here, it is "Today they hire professional contortionists to explain why no one is really evil" - which is, if anything, an anti-woke statement.

OTOH, "Nazi means Trump!" is up there with "Orcs are Black Americans!" Please, let's not fight wokeness by thinking like wokes do.

Quote from: Reckall on January 25, 2025, 05:08:47 AM...Some RPGs hem and haw and twist their hands trying to make bad guys without saying they're all evil, other games are all about punching the shit out of nazis.

I suspected that it would turn out to be something along those line.  I don't see any code here either.  He is clearly talking about games with antagonists that are unambiguously evil with Nazis as an example.  Lots of games use either Nazi analogues or actual Nazis as antagonists.  I see nothing that suggests he is talking about real people let alone advocating violence of any sort. 

Noted for the clarification.  I think one has to add wargames to TTRPGs to get to 10% fighting nazis.

I know that one of his favorite games is Pulp Call of Cthulhu.  The default setting is the 1930s and Nazis are common antagonists.  I would guess that he is talking about that.  More broadly, he seems to be talking about games with enemies that are simply evil rather than misunderstood or sympathetic.  I see nothing that he indicates that he is talking about the real world or advocating violence against real people.   

I find this weird fetishization of nazis in games kinda odd. On the one hand they want to have an enemy that is so commonly evil, that they can pretty much justify any kind of violance against them, after all their nazis, so who cares.

On the other hand they never seem to make them the actually diabolical menacingly evil figures that they were. Instead they portray them as carricatures.

https://bsky.app/profile/sskorkowsky.bsky.social/post/3lgdshd7lsk2y

That link says it all.
Seems to me that neither the authors of this RPG nor the people in the thread know particularly much about what it meant to be actually up against the nazis during WW2. This looming feeling of doom because of their power and cruelty and relentlessness.

I think they do make for great villains. So many heroic stories can be told in a world were nazis exist as an enemy. And so much room for grey character desicions.
But not if your enemies are nothing more like screaming baboons/ punching bags.

I also agree with some of what has been said here. "Punch a nazi" is a slogan to justify violence against people on the right. But thats going off topic.

Quote from: Steeldom on January 28, 2025, 02:39:55 AMI also agree with some of what has been said here. "Punch a nazi" is a slogan to justify violence against people on the right. But thats going off topic.

Haha no, that is precisely the topic.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 25, 2025, 12:13:06 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 24, 2025, 06:44:24 PMI get that.  I think what Eric 1971 meant, by "code for" is that "punch a Nazi" really means, "punch someone with whom I disagree so I call a Nazi".  But I think that "punch" part isn't code, but literal.

It's also possible that he was speaking literally and talking about one of the many ttrpgs that use Nazis as adversaries. 

This kind of accusation so common and made with so little basis that I am going to need more than a second hand account to believe it.  I have seen what people said misrepresented way too many times for me to believe this sort of accusation without seeing the original comments.

I don't think I've ever seen any left-winger refer to "Nazis" and not mean code for "anyone not left-wing", no matter what they're talking about.

Quote from: Nobleshield on January 28, 2025, 09:40:35 AMdon't think I've ever seen any left-winger refer to "Nazis" and not mean code for "anyone not left-wing", no matter what they're talking about.

Right, but that's the reverse of what's being asked here -- whether someone who refers to Nazis (and in this case, specifically "punching Nazis") is in fact left wing.

Quote from: Nobleshield on January 28, 2025, 09:40:35 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 25, 2025, 12:13:06 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 24, 2025, 06:44:24 PMI get that.  I think what Eric 1971 meant, by "code for" is that "punch a Nazi" really means, "punch someone with whom I disagree so I call a Nazi".  But I think that "punch" part isn't code, but literal.

It's also possible that he was speaking literally and talking about one of the many ttrpgs that use Nazis as adversaries. 

This kind of accusation so common and made with so little basis that I am going to need more than a second hand account to believe it.  I have seen what people said misrepresented way too many times for me to believe this sort of accusation without seeing the original comments.

I don't think I've ever seen any left-winger refer to "Nazis" and not mean code for "anyone not left-wing", no matter what they're talking about.

My thoughts exactly.  This is why I mentioned it in the first place.

Quote from: Phil on January 23, 2025, 04:25:48 AMHi guys,

this time I'd like to have your opinion about Torchbearer from Burningwheel. The reason I'm interested in this game is I'm looking for a pseudo-OSR-like dungeon crawler with old fashioned arts. I saw this game could be the good one, and it will be available in my mother tongue this year, so I may give it a try.

Obviously, I was disappointed to see it in the redlist, but also surprised not to find here any description of actual content from the game itself possibly owning its place.

Thence my question: do you know this game, what is your general feeling about it, and of course, could you point me actual woke/anti-consumer content from the book itself?

Subsidiary comment: don't you think making a list based on game lines rather than companies, would allow a better granularity and increased relevance for consumers? For instance, if I was unable to see any wokeness in The One Ring yet, I cannot avoid being negatively triggered when reading Forbidden Lands, and I don't think it is only due to my own and unfounded conservative bias (though it plays a role ofc). Meanwhile, both games are from Free League, often told to deserve its place in the greenlist. I don't think FL would merit a place in the redlist in itself, but, I'm just wondering about the relevance of a company-based list. 

I have the game; kind of like it; we played it some.  No one else in my group really took to it, because it is a very abstract game.  Also, it doesn't really work with anything but 3-4 players because of the way the mechanics function.

It is in no way an OSR-like game.  Rather, like Dungeon World, it is hitting some of the same subject matter in a completely different kind of game.  Torchbearer, and all BW games, are set up so that any kind of fight (or conflict of any kind for that matter) is likely to have a big cost to the characters. Furthermore, there is no way to advance but risk it.  So the upshot is that mathematically the players must do crazy stuff, knowing that the most likely outcome is that 1 or 2 of the characters are going to die. 

All of that became moot for me right about the time my group said it didn't really work for them, when the whole team behind the BW games were some of the first to jump on the idea of if you don't agree with our extreme left-wing positions, then don't play our games.  Message received, chief.  Also, they think Anita Sarkiseen or whatever her name is, is sane.  In fairness, nothing in the actual game text is woke.  If they didn't make it so clear, it would down to whether you like that kind of game or not.

If you want something OSR-like, literally any actual OSR game would be a far better choice.

.