The infamous D&D 4E, what was wrong with it?

RNGm · **Today** at 09:12:10 AM

Is this some sort of anniversary for 4e or something that news on it keeps popping up recently? No idea about the site as I've never heard of it but this link/article crossed my path this morning during the daily round up...

https://therpggazette.wordpress.com/2025/01/22/the-dd-4th-edition-rennaissaince-a-look-into-the-history-of-the-edition-its-flaws-and-its-merits/

Ruprecht · **Today** at 10:18:12 AM

Quote from: RNGm on Today at 09:12:10 AMIs this some sort of anniversary for 4e or something that news on it keeps popping up recently? No idea about the site as I've never heard of it but this link/article crossed my path this morning during the daily round up...

I suspect it's related to the release of 2024 edition. People thinking back at what was, what could have been, what won't be missed.

Ruprecht · **Today** at 10:33:11 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 21, 2025, 02:32:08 PMIf I was Wizards of the Coast I'd rerelease 4E as a new version of Gamma World and release it as Creative Commons. Sounds like it'd work pretty well with a few changes to monsters and tech.

Oddly enough I just read on wikipedia, regarding Gamma World that "The seventh version uses a streamlined version of D&D 4th edition mechanics." So my ignorance wasn't too far off. To bad they didn't leave D&D alone and push the new mechanics there to test them and see how accepted they would be.

Armchair Gamer · **Today** at 10:35:02 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on Today at 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 21, 2025, 02:32:08 PMIf I was Wizards of the Coast I'd rerelease 4E as a new version of Gamma World and release it as Creative Commons. Sounds like it'd work pretty well with a few changes to monsters and tech.
Oddly enough I just read on wikipedia, regarding Gamma World that "The seventh version uses a streamlined version of D&D 4th edition mechanics." So my ignorance wasn't too far off. To bad they didn't leave D&D alone and push the new mechanics there to test them and see how accepted they would be.

An earlier version of the changes was tested in Star Wars Saga Edition, and was generally well-received. I think 4E went a bit farther afield and wound up losing some of the things that made SWSE successful.

RNGm · **Today** at 12:16:58 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on Today at 10:18:12 AM
Quote from: RNGm on Today at 09:12:10 AMIs this some sort of anniversary for 4e or something that news on it keeps popping up recently? No idea about the site as I've never heard of it but this link/article crossed my path this morning during the daily round up...
I suspect it's related to the release of 2024 edition. People thinking back at what was, what could have been, what won't be missed.

I think that linked article I posted summed it up well in that it's attained cult-like status with alot of influential people in the RPG space (the "fart sniffing" crowd in classic South Park terminology). Last year, it felt like there was a definite resurgence of interest due to post-OGL debacle RPG projects by that same crowd.

RNGm · **Today** at 12:20:39 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on Today at 10:35:02 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on Today at 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 21, 2025, 02:32:08 PMIf I was Wizards of the Coast I'd rerelease 4E as a new version of Gamma World and release it as Creative Commons. Sounds like it'd work pretty well with a few changes to monsters and tech.
Oddly enough I just read on wikipedia, regarding Gamma World that "The seventh version uses a streamlined version of D&D 4th edition mechanics." So my ignorance wasn't too far off. To bad they didn't leave D&D alone and push the new mechanics there to test them and see how accepted they would be.

An earlier version of the changes was tested in Star Wars Saga Edition, and was generally well-received. I think 4E went a bit farther afield and wound up losing some of the things that made SWSE successful.

I can vouch for that as I was one of the folks in that camp. I was running a SWSE campaign and liked alot of the changes (other than the very easily abusable and front loaded skill system it had) and was excitedly looking forward to 4e at the time because of it. WOTC wasn't hiding the fact that they were using SWSE to test run mechanics and even flat out said so in various promotional materials (website articles and maybe even the preview "making of 4e" book they came out with prior to 4e's official release). Unfortunately, the end product felt like it went full tard though when the next group I was a part of (since I moved across the country in the interim) finally ended up trying it.

Darrin Kelley · **Today** at 01:02:18 PM

It was a wargame mixed with an MMO. It was a developmental step backward from D&D 3.5.

Armchair Gamer · **Today** at 05:09:19 PM

Quote from: RNGm on Today at 12:20:39 PMI can vouch for that as I was one of the folks in that camp. I was running a SWSE campaign and liked alot of the changes (other than the very easily abusable and front loaded skill system it had) and was excitedly looking forward to 4e at the time because of it. WOTC wasn't hiding the fact that they were using SWSE to test run mechanics and even flat out said so in various promotional materials (website articles and maybe even the preview "making of 4e" book they came out with prior to 4e's official release). Unfortunately, the end product felt like it went full tard though when the next group I was a part of (since I moved across the country in the interim) finally ended up trying it.

There's a whole blurb about it in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes, yes. And while SWSE had its flaws, I greatly enjoyed the two mini-campaigns I played of it over the years.

4E fixed some of the math goofs in SWSE, but it also left out a lot of noncombat widgets, which helped make PCs feel overly combat-focused. I think the demise of the condition track(s), combined with the inflated HP values, probably contributed to the 'combat as slog' feeling as well.