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The infamous D&D 4E, what was wrong with it?

Started by weirdguy564, January 11, 2025, 11:46:40 PM

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Armchair Gamer

#30
Quote from: LouProsperi on January 13, 2025, 10:23:40 AMCan elaborate on how 4E promoted GNS and/or the theories promoted on The Forge?



Lou Prosperi

  As far as I can tell, the reasoning is one part 'it feels gamist!' and three parts: The Pundit hates 4E. The Pundit hates the Forge. QED. :D

  4E is, IMO, a decent core in itself, but released a year too early from both a design and a market perspective, too divergent from the D&D tradition, and continues the long-standing WotC pattern of Too Much Asmodeus.

SmallMountaineer

I've never experienced 4e and I don't care to. The further from video games my tabletop games can be, the better.
As far as gaming is concerned, I have no socio-political nor religious views.
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LouProsperi

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 13, 2025, 12:16:13 PM
Quote from: LouProsperi on January 13, 2025, 10:23:40 AMCan elaborate on how 4E promoted GNS and/or the theories promoted on The Forge?



Lou Prosperi

  As far as I can tell, the reasoning is one part 'it feels gamist!' and three parts: The Pundit hates 4E. The Pundit hates the Forge. QED. :D

  4E is, IMO, a decent core in itself, but released a year too early from both a design and a market perspective, too divergent from the D&D tradition, and continues the long-standing WotC pattern of Too Much Asmodeus.

I suspect your guess at the reasoning is correct, but I want to give folks the benefit of the doubt.


S'mon

I like it as a game but (a) the monster stats were mostly borked (MM3 was ok) (b) it is nothing like D&D and cannot be used to run a D&D campaign. Dragonbane or Runequest are far closer to D&D. 4e is designed for a kind of cinematic board game experience and works best if you think Fantastic Four or The Avengers.
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S'mon

Quote from: LouProsperi on January 13, 2025, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: Omega on January 12, 2025, 08:07:34 PM3: The book suffers from GNS/Forge cult doctrine that was prevalent at the time.


I've seen this stated elsewhere, but I never understood this claim. The level of crunch and emphasis on tactical combat seems like it's the polar opposite of the Storygame emphasis of the Forge. I sort of get how it aligns with the "G" part of GNS, but narrative takes a back seat to combat and tactics, and the only thing 4E simulated was a weird tabletop version of WoW.

Can elaborate on how 4E promoted GNS and/or the theories promoted on The Forge?

Lou Prosperi

GNS didn't just push Narrativism, it also said that a game has to have a Creative Agenda. For 4e that would be Gamist; discarding all the traditional Simulationist elements of D&D. I think Forge influence on 4e was actually fairly light though but Wyatt's "Skip To the Fun!" rant in the 4e DMG was reminiscent of Forge anti-simulation rhetoric.
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Skullking

If you like a tactical skirmish game where every action feels like tapping a magic card then it is the game for you. Personally I prefer RPGs.

BoxCrayonTales

I never played 4e. From what I could tell from reading the two Wizards Presents preview booklets, it had a lot of interesting ideas: firmly defining class roles and power sources, making the planes far more gameable than they were even in Planescape, revising nonsensical sacred cows like the Demon/Devil divide...

Unfortunately, it made a lot of bad choices that alienated players. This included both rules like deliberately emulating MMOs and miniatures games to the exclusion of roleplaying, as well as presentation gaffs like that godawful video where a tiefling mocks a gnome.

Fortunately, what good ideas 4e had have been incorporated into 13th Age for the most part.

RNGm

#37
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 14, 2025, 12:46:39 PMUnfortunately, it made a lot of bad choices that alienated players. This included both rules like deliberately emulating MMOs and miniatures games to the exclusion of roleplaying, as well as presentation gaffs like that godawful video where a tiefling mocks a gnome.

I loved that video, lol.    I'm a monster... Rawwwr!  :)   I think I had more fun watching that little flash animation back in the day then I did with all my 4e games combined.  :(

M2A0

One aspect of 4E that is rarely mentioned as that it was designed in conjunction with a revised version of the D&D miniatures game. Beyond all the MMO trappings, it was meant as a vehicle to get more people buying minis, (repeat purchases). The entire D&D mini game had an edition change to as part of the lead up to 4E.

4E was driven more by WotC trying to get more revenue from the player base by selling "tactile" aids (dungeon tiles, minis, a online subscription to the character builder, etc..) In many ways Neu-D&D is following the very same course.

 

Man at Arms

I think 4e would be better; if you only used monsters from the Dark Sun Creature Catalog, and played in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting for 4e.

Just something different, from 3e or 5e.

Ruprecht

If I was Wizards of the Coast I'd rerelease 4E as a new version of Gamma World and release it as Creative Commons. Sounds like it'd work pretty well with a few changes to monsters and tech.
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strollofturtle

There's  absolutely nothing wrong with 4th edition, it just wasn't D&D. If I buy fries I don't want to be given tater tots, not because I don't like tater tots but I ordered fries.

Jaeger

Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2025, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: LouProsperi on January 13, 2025, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: Omega on January 12, 2025, 08:07:34 PM3: The book suffers from GNS/Forge cult doctrine that was prevalent at the time.
...
Can elaborate on how 4E promoted GNS and/or the theories promoted on The Forge?
...
GNS didn't just push Narrativism, it also said that a game has to have a Creative Agenda. For 4e that would be Gamist; discarding all the traditional Simulationist elements of D&D. I think Forge influence on 4e was actually fairly light though but Wyatt's "Skip To the Fun!" rant in the 4e DMG was reminiscent of Forge anti-simulation rhetoric.

"GNS/The Forge" influencing 4e design is not a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.

From Ron Edwards himself:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/adept/index.php?topic=209.0
Quote"Any system thoughts? Sure! But you know them already. Mike Mearls was one of the original three guys including me who floated the idea of the Forge in 1999, and Rob Heinsoo was an active participant there. It's no surprise that I'm finding the game so appealing. ..."
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Lynn

I picked up the 4e PHB and started reading. I don't think I finished reading the book. I never played it.

The reframing for MMO players was enough to tell me that WotC didn't want me as a customer. It isn't that I didn't like MMOs but, I don't play a tabletop RPG to have an MMO like experience.

My 3.5 games were going just fine, then Pathfinder came out. We converted over to Pathfinder 1e.
Lynn Fredricks
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Armchair Gamer

Quote from: Jaeger on January 21, 2025, 10:07:45 PM"GNS/The Forge" influencing 4e design is not a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.

From Ron Edwards himself:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/adept/index.php?topic=209.0
Quote"Any system thoughts? Sure! But you know them already. Mike Mearls was one of the original three guys including me who floated the idea of the Forge in 1999, and Rob Heinsoo was an active participant there. It's no surprise that I'm finding the game so appealing. ..."

  OK, that's information I didn't have, and strongly suggests Forge influence on the game's design. Having never engaged with either the Forge or MMOs, it's no surprise I'm blind to the purported resemblances. :)