Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMJust stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.

I'm a bit late to this portion of the convo but I do believe it's a bit more nuanced having been a prior fan of WOD.

one of the larger complaints regarding newer editions is that it softened the monsters a good deal, the appeal of early white wolf games (as advertised, not always as played) was a similar thing with Warhhamer 40k, that being there was no good guys, only shades of grey and black.

Sure the Camarilla were authoritarian to the hilt and and had strict rules, but that was far better than the Sabbat who were batshit insane joker levels of evil.

Sure the Garou Nation are a bunch of eco-fascists who wanted to return the world back to a more primal and savage state, but Pentex like 1000% more evil, like end of all reality levels of evil.

Early White Wolf like Early Games Workshop was aware of their own satire and played it to the hilt, it was the writers and later publishers who didn't understand the nuance of it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMJust stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.

As a follow up to my first reply.

One awesome idea for a game centered on actually good werewolves, and something I plan on actually writing. are the Benandanti. A group of Catholic peasants/monks with reported powers to turn into wolves in their sleep and who hunted down santanic witches.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 11:33:37 AMEarly White Wolf like Early Games Workshop was aware of their own satire and played it to the hilt, it was the writers and later publishers who didn't understand the nuance of it.

The problem with long-running franchises in a nutshell. Usually I wouldn't care, but they basically own the urban fantasy genre in games and actively murdered better options like Chronicles of Darkness. (Better, not best. I have many reservations with that game's rules and lore, but Vigil and Lost are awesome despite that.)

Hopefully the bombing of Bloodlines 2 will finally kill this IP more or less permanently and open the market to competitors.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 11:38:32 AMOne awesome idea for a game centered on actually good werewolves, and something I plan on actually writing. are the Benandanti. A group of Catholic peasants/monks with reported powers to turn into wolves in their sleep and who hunted down santanic witches.

That actually sounds fun and not gross. Christian werewolves that fight demons and witches. Why is there no game about that? Even if you don't want the game to be about Christianity, there are similar ideas in world mythology about pagan priests that do the same thing.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 11:46:19 AMThe problem with long-running franchises in a nutshell. Usually I wouldn't care, but they basically own the urban fantasy genre in games and actively murdered better options like Chronicles of Darkness. (Better, not best. I have many reservations with that game's rules and lore, but Vigil and Lost are awesome despite that.)

Hopefully the bombing of Bloodlines 2 will finally kill this IP more or less permanently and open the market to competitors.

One of my goals is to get something like that off the ground in the OSR sphere, except instead of playing the monsters you play those who hunt monsters, be that divinely ordained to, or through grit. with later supplements giving good monster options.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 11:46:19 AMThat actually sounds fun and not gross. Christian werewolves that fight demons and witches. Why is there no game about that? Even if you don't want the game to be about Christianity, there are similar ideas in world mythology about pagan priests that do the same thing.

My guess is it mainly has to do with it's Christian overtones as well as a deliberate misunderstanding of Pagan ideas, which is that they worshiped nature as a beastly mother. in truth many Pagans had just as many prohibitions on witchcraft and debauchery as Christians. hence why good werewolves who kill evil witches hasn't caught on, cause pop-culture has venerated the witch as a good archetype and Pagans as free-wheeling nature hippies.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 12:06:40 PMOne of my goals is to get something like that off the ground in the OSR sphere, except instead of playing the monsters you play those who hunt monsters, be that divinely ordained to, or through grit. with later supplements giving good monster options.

Good luck!

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 12:06:40 PMMy guess is it mainly has to do with it's Christian overtones as well as a deliberate misunderstanding of Pagan ideas, which is that they worshiped nature as a beastly mother. in truth many Pagans had just as many prohibitions on witchcraft and debauchery as Christians. hence why good werewolves who kill evil witches hasn't caught on, cause pop-culture has venerated the witch as a good archetype and Pagans as free-wheeling nature hippies.

We have records of Roman and Egyptian religion written by them. We have pagan religions like Hinduism and Shinto right now. It should be pretty obvious that the hippie thing is completely nonsense, invented by hippies in the 1960s.

White Wolf was criticized for misappropriating this stuff back in the 90s and 2000s by those who did the research.