Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:00:24 PMWhy is there even a section for this?

As it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

Yeah.  In my 42+ years gaming, this has happened exactly... never.  Seriously.  No one has ever tried to seduce the main villain.  But then again, that's because my players are people with a strong moral foundation and who would not see a villain as anything other than an evil to be defeated, even if he/she was "hot."

Honestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2025, 11:33:22 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 07, 2025, 10:14:56 PMI don't know. Third party supplements about weird sex stuff have been around for decades and the "bard rolls to seduce the dragon" joke for probably as long. In my personal reckoning of degeneracy, it all depends on what kind of monster we're talking about. A Djinn? Couldn't care less. A Displacer Beast? Yeah, that's pretty fucked up.

The "anti-colonialist gaming" thing is infinitely more pathetic and embarrassing.

Guess you missed the part about shagging FERAL monsters...

I noticed it. I just don't have it in me to get outraged about that sort of thing. I thought "our side" was the one that laughed at people who couldn't distinguish fantasy from reality.

Anyway, I'd guess from context that what they have in mind with "feral monsters" is more like vampires, werewolves, demons, etc, just based on the Twilight reference and the fact that you can't really "romance" or get consent from a creature of animal intelligence. Still gross, but not what I'd call beyond the pale for a fantasy game.

Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AMAs it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

It's never happened in one of my games, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually pretty common. Like I said above, the "bard tries to seduce the monster/villain" meme is so common that it has to have a grain of truth to it, and people will generally do some pretty wild shit in their games for a laugh.

I'd also guess it's pretty common because this is the direction modern fantasy fiction has been going in. The two most prolific and bestselling subgenres right now are "romantasy" (basically fantasy "bodice rippers"), and "LitRPG" (usually isekai stories based on videogame tropes). I don't read either, but from what I hear both those genres have banging the villain as a standard trope. The quoted text even uses the phrase "enemies to lovers" which is the name in those circles for that trope. 

What's absurd is the hand-wringing about consent. The funny thing about these people is that they want to turn their games into a sleazy romance novel, but they don't understand the first thing about how that kind of fictional romance works. In their minds what should happen is that the PC charms the villain with how brave and stunning she is, and then he miraculously abandons his evil plans, mends his ways, and proceeds to spend the rest of his life making soy milk scones and being a non-threatening and submissive feminist ally. Then they go off and read books where the bad-boy monster and the heroine have snarky banter at each other before engaging in a graphic hatefuck.

Sounds like they raided a bunch of old games for DM advice and where blurry eyed when they got to the James Bond RPG.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AM

Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:00:24 PMWhy is there even a section for this?

As it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

Yeah.  In my 42+ years gaming, this has happened exactly... never.  Seriously.  No one has ever tried to seduce the main villain.  But then again, that's because my players are people with a strong moral foundation and who would not see a villain as anything other than an evil to be defeated, even if he/she was "hot."

Honestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

I think you might be misunderstanding something here. Use of seduction to defeat the evil is quite common. There are numerous war and spy novels and movies where the hero/heroine does exactly that. Hell, I think it's been used in fantasy as well.

In this case, seducing the evil antagonist is a deception to leverage a weakness in the bad guy. Hell, it could be used just as a distraction. Would it be so far of a stretch to have a charismatic thief to try to seduce the (fill in demi-human or humanoid race here) prison guards, so as to distract them from the rest of the party?

Plus, and I can't stress this enough, there might be a limit on how far the seduction will go. It doesn't exactly mean going "all the way". It could be some flirting, maybe kissing. Who knows. When the goal is accomplished, the seduction ends.

OTOH, I draw the line at seducing monsters that are OBVIOUSLY monsters. If it looks like beastiality, it IS beastiality.

Quote from: blackstone on January 08, 2025, 11:27:38 AMI think you might be misunderstanding something here. Use of seduction to defeat the evil is quite common. There are numerous war and spy novels and movies where the hero/heroine does exactly that. Hell, I think it's been used in fantasy as well.

In this case, seducing the evil antagonist is a deception to leverage a weakness in the bad guy. Hell, it could be used just as a distraction. Would it be so far of a stretch to have a charismatic thief to try to seduce the (fill in demi-human or humanoid race here) prison guards, so as to distract them from the rest of the party?

The Gray Mouser spends like half of Swords of Lankhmar trying to hook up with a rat-human hybrid who is at least a secondary villain in the story. I think at one point he's doing it for a semi-noble reason, but mostly he's just trying to get laid.

Quote from: blackstone on January 08, 2025, 11:27:38 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AM

Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:00:24 PMWhy is there even a section for this?

As it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

Yeah.  In my 42+ years gaming, this has happened exactly... never.  Seriously.  No one has ever tried to seduce the main villain.  But then again, that's because my players are people with a strong moral foundation and who would not see a villain as anything other than an evil to be defeated, even if he/she was "hot."

Honestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

I think you might be misunderstanding something here. Use of seduction to defeat the evil is quite common.

Nope.  The use of seduction to distract the evil is common.  When you have two sections on "consent" in that chapter, you are not talking about flirting or holding hands.  You are talking about sex with the bad guy or monster!  And that's a popular, degenerate theme in modern women's romance novels.

There have been honeytraps throughout all of real human history.  That doesn't mean my group wants to, or has ever, played them.  A character flashing the guards for a momentary distraction (and laughs) is NOT the same as creating a subplot where you are boning Vecna (pun intended).  Look at the illustration!  It's a character seducing a naga.  That's not a "humanoid."

The problem with many people is that, when the evil tell us what they want to do, those people then argue that the evil didn't really mean what they said.  The book is explicitly talking about sex (and consent) with monsters.  How dense do you need to be to argue they don't mean what they are directly saying?  What do you think "... well, fiercely taking down their foe.  If you catch the drift." means?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 07, 2025, 05:02:09 PMSo, once upon a time, I bought the "Lazy GM's Guide" (or whatever it was called), and I read through it.  It started off with what I considered to be solid GM advice.  Not amazing, not lifechanging, but solid.  By the time I got to the last few chapters, I was seriously questioning why I had read the thing in the first place.  The last half diverges from what I would call "GMing 101" into "stupid stuff."  Like, I wouldn't expect it to work at any table, and if it did, it still wouldn't make my GMing easier or better.  A friend had his second book, and I flipped through just enough to confirm that it was more of the same.

I liked that book way back when, although the only thing I remember taking away from it was the secrets and clues thing. I liked the idea that you would have things you'd want the party to pick up or learn so you don't bother thinking where to put the thing or the clue, you just give it to them when seems appropriate. The problem of course is that if the party starts to wonder why they found something where they found it the system can break down pretty fast, which puts a lot of onus on you to put things only where they reasonably would be, which complicates the whole system and makes it harder to use at the table. As much as I liked that idea, I never really implemented it at the table. I don't remember any of the other stuff in the book, and certainly don't care to look it up, and I won't be purchasing anything else of his any time soon.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 08, 2025, 12:10:53 PM

Quote from: blackstone on January 08, 2025, 11:27:38 AMI think you might be misunderstanding something here. Use of seduction to defeat the evil is quite common. There are numerous war and spy novels and movies where the hero/heroine does exactly that. Hell, I think it's been used in fantasy as well.

In this case, seducing the evil antagonist is a deception to leverage a weakness in the bad guy. Hell, it could be used just as a distraction. Would it be so far of a stretch to have a charismatic thief to try to seduce the (fill in demi-human or humanoid race here) prison guards, so as to distract them from the rest of the party?

The Gray Mouser spends like half of Swords of Lankhmar trying to hook up with a rat-human hybrid who is at least a secondary villain in the story. I think at one point he's doing it for a semi-noble reason, but mostly he's just trying to get laid.

Thanks for reminding me of ONE of the reasons I never liked those books.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 12:15:27 PM

Quote from: blackstone on January 08, 2025, 11:27:38 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AM

Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:00:24 PMWhy is there even a section for this?

As it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

Yeah.  In my 42+ years gaming, this has happened exactly... never.  Seriously.  No one has ever tried to seduce the main villain.  But then again, that's because my players are people with a strong moral foundation and who would not see a villain as anything other than an evil to be defeated, even if he/she was "hot."

Honestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

I think you might be misunderstanding something here. Use of seduction to defeat the evil is quite common.

Nope.  The use of seduction to distract the evil is common.  When you have two sections on "consent" in that chapter, you are not talking about flirting or holding hands.  You are talking about sex with the bad guy or monster!  And that's a popular, degenerate theme in modern women's romance novels.

There have been honeytraps throughout all of real human history.  That doesn't mean my group wants to, or has ever, played them.  A character flashing the guards for a momentary distraction (and laughs) is NOT the same as creating a subplot where you are boning Vecna (pun intended).  Look at the illustration!  It's a character seducing a naga.  That's not a "humanoid."

The problem with many people is that, when the evil tell us what they want to do, those people then argue that the evil didn't really mean what they said.  The book is explicitly talking about sex (and consent) with monsters.  How dense do you need to be to argue they don't mean what they are directly saying?  What do you think "... well, fiercely taking down their foe.  If you catch the drift." means?

Yeah, there are a few passages that the author's attempt at being edgy come off as plain creepy. Approval of beastiality is a no go.

I still do stand by what I said:

QuoteUse of seduction to defeat the evil is quite common. There are numerous war and spy novels and movies where the hero/heroine does exactly that. Hell, I think it's been used in fantasy as well.

In this case, seducing the evil antagonist is a deception to leverage a weakness in the bad guy. Hell, it could be used just as a distraction. Would it be so far of a stretch to have a charismatic thief to try to seduce the (fill in demi-human or humanoid race here) prison guards, so as to distract them from the rest of the party?

Plus, and I can't stress this enough, there might be a limit on how far the seduction will go. It doesn't exactly mean going "all the way". It could be some flirting, maybe kissing. Who knows. When the goal is accomplished, the seduction ends.

OTOH, I draw the line at seducing monsters that are OBVIOUSLY monsters. If it looks like beastiality, it IS beastiality.

I don't think anything I said here is unreasonable. The Lazy DM though takes it to the next deviant level.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AMHonestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

It's gotten to point where many romance readers will satirize it. "He killed billions of innocent people, but all is forgiven because he's hot."

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AM

Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:00:24 PMWhy is there even a section for this?

As it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

Yeah.  In my 42+ years gaming, this has happened exactly... never.  Seriously.  No one has ever tried to seduce the main villain.

Lol!  About 25 years into my RPG hobby, I got the bright idea of bribing a couple of fire giants instead of fighting them. And to think I thought I had done something innovative...!!!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 01:49:16 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AMHonestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

It's gotten to point where many romance readers will satirize it. "He killed billions of innocent people, but all is forgiven because he's hot."

Yup.  See Nu Star Wars.  On a related note, imagine how many deaths Obi Wan is responsible for by not killing Anakin/Vader outright not just once, but (as of the TV series) twice...

Nothing says colonialist quite like fucking the indigenous monsters though

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on January 09, 2025, 11:38:59 AMNothing says colonialist quite like fucking the indigenous monsters though

Cultural insemination at its worst.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 08, 2025, 10:23:59 AM

Quote from: Zalman on January 08, 2025, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:00:24 PMWhy is there even a section for this?

As it says in the text, because "many campaigns come to the crossroads that is romancing the big bad."

So. Many.

Yeah.  In my 42+ years gaming, this has happened exactly... never.  Seriously.  No one has ever tried to seduce the main villain.  But then again, that's because my players are people with a strong moral foundation and who would not see a villain as anything other than an evil to be defeated, even if he/she was "hot."

Honestly, this sounds like the feminization of Western society has gotten to the point where anything can be forgiven as long as a protagonist can "save" the bad guy (typical romance novel plot).  When 50 Shades of Gray becomes the ethical foundation of your RPGs, you've listened to too many women...

I have had some -really- mild flirting as a player with a villain as part of RPing trying to turn them to the good guys side. As a DM I ran two campaigns that at some point had some forays into romance. Though they usually puttered out.

TSR's Marvel Superheroes on the other hand has romances and other social play as part of the character if so desired. Family, loved ones, and so on. One of the few RPGs to ever think about the non-adventuring side and how it might impact the hero.