Quote from: Opaopajr on January 07, 2025, 12:24:12 PMWhat an example of a title shaping expectations from the implied ask of the original author's intent!

Reading your GM comparisons, jhkim, I feel the real question (which should be the real topic title) is: What Freeform Fun Is Lost as We Gain GM Efficiency from GM Proficiency? It's a question of innocence v experience; do we lose something in the transition? Do we lose joie de vivre, or ad-hoc solutions over rules memorization, or freeform experimentation over structured adventure pathing (or theatrical timing)?

Which is a more approachable question because I could say we've all seen a bit of our own tightening down as GMs as we grew more experienced. The story of the master wishing they could return to that glorious state of play before they "knew the approved rules" is as ubiquitous and oft told as art movements. The topic seems to me one more about, "What is lost in the transition?", than about, "Isn't fumbling around cute?"

Except I think this is a false dichotomy.  As we become better DMs, we become more comfortable ruling, instead of falling back on the rules.  Inexperienced DMs I've seen tend to fall back on "the rules say X!" instead of being comfortable changing, bending, or even ignoring the rules.  I think it's DM Efficiency plus Freeform Fun, not versus...

Think of all the landmines new GM's face:

1) The Fake - Suffering anxiety over not knowing the rules or how to adjudicate
2) Natural adversariness - "The players vs. Me"
3) The Author - I know, I'll just do an adventure just like in this novel!
4) The RAW Dog - The Rules ARE THE GAME
5) The Buyer's Remorse GM - The PC's are not what I envisioned, they're ruining MY game
6) The Killer - Yes, your band of four 1st level PC's are facing off against 40-400 Kobolds.
7) The Vaporlock - Not knowing what's in every building of the town you just described. what's in every box. What all the variety of ales your tavern offers.

I mean I could go on and on. These are basic things that most GM's just gloss over. But Good GM's have tricks to kill these issues dead, or seamlessly weave them into their games where you stop worrying about the rules, and spend your time engaging the players to get them to engage more in the play-portion of the game. You gotta wade through all these mines in the Noob GM Minefield first. HOPEFULLY you have an experienced GM that can help you navigate and they're willing to listen.

That's the "efficiency" part of the formula. It feeds the ability to Freeform and vice versa. That's the sweet spot. But *getting* to this realization means you're LONG past being a beginner GM. This is why the fundamental reason for GMing has to be at least be one of true desire to learn.

I was in a great 4e D&D group with an incompetent GM. But as he started flaking I volunteered to run games, s o they soon kicked him out and elected me instead. It's just personalities I guess. I mean this group had the awesome Kimberly Pauley https://www.kimberlypauley.com/ playing D&D for the first time in her life!

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 07, 2025, 01:02:45 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 07, 2025, 12:24:12 PMWhat an example of a title shaping expectations from the implied ask of the original author's intent!

Reading your GM comparisons, jhkim, I feel the real question (which should be the real topic title) is: What Freeform Fun Is Lost as We Gain GM Efficiency from GM Proficiency? It's a question of innocence v experience; do we lose something in the transition? Do we lose joie de vivre, or ad-hoc solutions over rules memorization, or freeform experimentation over structured adventure pathing (or theatrical timing)?

Which is a more approachable question because I could say we've all seen a bit of our own tightening down as GMs as we grew more experienced. The story of the master wishing they could return to that glorious state of play before they "knew the approved rules" is as ubiquitous and oft told as art movements. The topic seems to me one more about, "What is lost in the transition?", than about, "Isn't fumbling around cute?"

Except I think this is a false dichotomy.  As we become better DMs, we become more comfortable ruling, instead of falling back on the rules.  Inexperienced DMs I've seen tend to fall back on "the rules say X!" instead of being comfortable changing, bending, or even ignoring the rules.  I think it's DM Efficiency plus Freeform Fun, not versus...

I think Opaopajr is getting at something - but I didn't intend anything quite so specific.

I'd agree with Eirikrautha that a skilled GM can improvise and freeform well, so it's not necessary. But maybe some people and groups do lose some flexibility as they get more "sophisticated".

--

I do know that I had fun playing RPGs from the start when I was a kid, even though we had no experience or skill at it. And I don't think that's unique to the 1970s or being a kid. I still believe that a group of people - kids or adults - can pick up an RPG and have fun playing it, without particular experience or skill. I have no problem recommending at least some RPGs to friends or the kids of friends.

So what causes loss of fun? I don't have an answer for everyone, obviously.

1) Changing standards?  As a fifty-something man, I won't have fun the same way as when I was a young kid. Do experienced gamers demand more, and can't have fun without higher objective skill and quality?

2) Losing joie de vivre?

3) Changing social circumstances? As a kid, I played with my school friends - whereas now it's more common to play with strangers on the Internet.

4) Do skilled GMs get bogged down in trying to meet higher standards and follow more rules?

Well, the best way to suss out where you were going with this, jhkim, is to elaborate on the difference between this GM's happy, fumbling, start and their subsequent serious, capable, continuation.

What of the latter campaign feels less spirited? Is it something that could be described in words, even categorized as a GM pitfall? If experience suggests only ever better results then these results are anomalous, right? Did you see similar among other GMs who went from novice to joyrneyman?

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 08, 2025, 12:53:36 PM Well, the best way to suss out where you were going with this, jhkim, is to elaborate on the difference between this GM's happy, fumbling, start and their subsequent serious, capable, continuation.

What of the latter campaign feels less spirited? Is it something that could be described in words, even categorized as a GM pitfall? If experience suggests only ever better results then these results are anomalous, right? Did you see similar among other GMs who went from novice to joyrneyman?

I've seen so few GMs go from novice to journeyman that I hesitate to generalize. There's only a very small fraction of GMs I know where I really got to see them at their start, and GMs aren't even that common.

I think the biggest pitfall of any GM - whether novice or experienced - is being more interested their own status and spotlight, and less interested in everyone having a good time.

Quote from: tenbones on January 07, 2025, 03:23:19 PMThink of all the landmines new GM's face:

1) The Fake - Suffering anxiety over not knowing the rules or how to adjudicate
2) Natural adversariness - "The players vs. Me"
3) The Author - I know, I'll just do an adventure just like in this novel!
4) The RAW Dog - The Rules ARE THE GAME
5) The Buyer's Remorse GM - The PC's are not what I envisioned, they're ruining MY game
6) The Killer - Yes, your band of four 1st level PC's are facing off against 40-400 Kobolds.
7) The Vaporlock - Not knowing what's in every building of the town you just described. what's in every box. What all the variety of ales your tavern offers.

I mean I could go on and on. These are basic things that most GM's just gloss over. But Good GM's have tricks to kill these issues dead

I feel most of these are easily handled with flexibility and social awareness, as long as the GM is willing to listen and care about fun for the players. The pitfall is often social communication and motivation rather than skill, I think.

I have absolutely had fun with a GM who doesn't know what he was doing, lots of times, and for me coping came down to two things. 

1)  Tolerance for mistakes and poor technique.  I've been running games for about 45 years at this point and I still make mistakes.  It would be entirely unreasonable of me to get bent out of shape at the mistakes of a new or newish GM.  Focus on what's fun, not the mistakes.  I get to be a player so rarely that I love the opportunity, even if things go south.

2)  I can do a lot to shape the direction of the game from the player's side of the screen just by taking the initiative.  Suppose the DM has an adventure where the final enemy is just too tough for the party, they ran away and can't come up with a plan that has a chance of success.  Everyone's frustrated.  "Hey guys, maybe we could explore over here and find something that would give us a chance."  Even a newbie DM can pick up on the opportunity to get the game moving again.  I suppose that a really bad experienced DM would reject the cue, but my experience is that these guys are a lot rarer than newbies.

We had some fun in a campaign once where the Gm suddenly went "you did what?!? But now I have no idea what to do anymore!" We told her to just roll with it and make something up if needed. Not the best, but not the worst gaming experience either 😄

Quote from: Trond on January 09, 2025, 05:49:06 AMWe had some fun in a campaign once where the Gm suddenly went "you did what?!? But now I have no idea what to do anymore!"

Every GM has these moments, but it's ideally not vocalized. Good GMing is not the absence of "WTF do I do now" but the ability to rapidly and smoothly recover from it.

Quote from: jhkim on January 08, 2025, 05:59:40 PMI feel most of these are easily handled with flexibility and social awareness, as long as the GM is willing to listen and care about fun for the players. The pitfall is often social communication and motivation rather than skill, I think.

There is something fundamental to this that is not being said. The GM in question *has* to want to really learn to GM in order for any of these pitfalls to be dealt with.

On the player side - which might be you or me - we have to be able and willing to pony up the time and effort to help that erstwhile GM assuming in good faith they indeed want to learn. OR we are simply wasting our time as both players and mentors. If you have that kind of time to spend? No problem. I, personally, don't, as I have lots of ways to enjoy my time with others, including running RPG's with those that "seriously" want to have fun doing it. Rather than it being an exercise in ego at everyone else's expense.

Caveat: I play exclusively with adults, so playing with younger folks this is slightly different. Ironically, I've found younger folks are more honest about wanting to learn to GM than most adults are.

I think wanting to be a better GM is the second-best motivation.  Wanting your players to have fun is less abstract, more personal, and has wider application