There's an important distinction you should draw between 'the hobby' as whole, and the section of it that is visibly active online. I agree that the latter is divided and embroiled in culture war, but it's also only a very small section of the hobby. It just seems larger because it's in public view.

For example, my group of players would probably be described as 'woke' by many members of this forum. They're all broadly leftist in their political beliefs, and demographically you've got trans, gay, non-binary, black, and mixed-race in there. They're just the people who are my friends and who wanted to play. But when we play, none of that stuff comes up. There's no X cards, and nobody balks when I mention the 'race' of a character. We kill orcs because they're evil and we have a good time. We actually play without bringing politics into it - the very thing the 'anti-woke' people keep calling for. But you will never hear from them, just like you won't hear from the vast majority of groups that just play, because they're not posting.

Quote from: mekhawretch on January 06, 2025, 07:28:13 AMThere's an important distinction you should draw between 'the hobby' as whole, and the section of it that is visibly active online. I agree that the latter is divided and embroiled in culture war, but it's also only a very small section of the hobby. It just seems larger because it's in public view.

For example, my group of players would probably be described as 'woke' by many members of this forum. They're all broadly leftist in their political beliefs, and demographically you've got trans, gay, non-binary, black, and mixed-race in there. They're just the people who are my friends and who wanted to play. But when we play, none of that stuff comes up. There's no X cards, and nobody balks when I mention the 'race' of a character. We kill orcs because they're evil and we have a good time. We actually play without bringing politics into it - the very thing the 'anti-woke' people keep calling for. But you will never hear from them, just like you won't hear from the vast majority of groups that just play, because they're not posting.

Nobody cares.  And I mean that as a good thing.  Nobody cares how your group plays, or how my group plays, and that is the way the hobby should work.  As long as the players are having fun, the RPGs are doing their job.

And this is why "anti-woke" is a thing.  Because game companies started putting crap in their games to tell me how I should play it, what topics I must avoid, what topics I must include, and how real-world politics needed to be "represented" at my table.  If all your players want made-up pronouns for their characters, nobody cares.  When a game company tells me that I must accept those made-up pronouns in order to run their game, that's when people start to care.

So, yeah, nobody cares how you play at your table.  Give the same courtesy to everyone else, and we're fine.  Start telling me that "all your orcs can't be evil because black people" and we have a problem.  Capisce?

Genuine question: in what situations have you - personally - been told to include or exclude certain topics, use certain terminology you disagree with, etc, in a game, with any degree of actual force or coercion? Obviously you don't have to play the woke games at your own table if you don't want to, and if it's in a public setting with total strangers, then you do have to reach some kind of agreement with the host and the other players - but you can always walk away from that table too.

If there's a situation I'm not considering I want to hear it, but at the moment the only way I can see this effecting you is that you sometimes have to see other people posting about stuff you disagree with. Which goes back to my original point that the posting is not the whole of the hobby.

Quote from: mekhawretch on January 06, 2025, 02:22:55 PMGenuine question: in what situations have you - personally - been told to include or exclude certain topics, use certain terminology you disagree with, etc, in a game, with any degree of actual force or coercion?

Need some help moving those goalposts?  I hear they're heavy.

Who was talking about people putting guns to your head?  No one.  But, when I go to a convention, a game store to run public games, online on VTTs, people expect me to run the rules as they are printed in the book.  So if the book says to not play orcs as evil, if the rules say to use imaginary pronouns, etc., then I'm going to lose my convention ticket, my spot at the table, my access to the VTT (see Roll20 for direct examples of this) if I'm not toeing the line.  We were all fine playing our games whatever way we wanted to, until the woke came along and infiltrated the companies that make the games, the moderators of the message boards about the games, and the VTTs where people play the games.

The whole "if they don't kick down your door" argument is tendentious bullshit.  I tell you what, would you complain if your favorite game posted a preface in its next edition that stated that there were only two sexes and "trans" doesn't exist, not in the real world or in their world?  Would you keep playing it?  Would you ask your players to abide by that as a condition of using a VTT or going to a convention?  You'd still have your home game, so you'd be fine with that, right?

This isn't a "problem" for leftists because it's the people they want to shut up that are getting affected.  Flip the ideology getting attacked in the games and we'd never hear the end of the whining...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 06, 2025, 03:52:31 PM

Quote from: mekhawretch on January 06, 2025, 02:22:55 PMGenuine question: in what situations have you - personally - been told to include or exclude certain topics, use certain terminology you disagree with, etc, in a game, with any degree of actual force or coercion?

Need some help moving those goalposts?  I hear they're heavy.

Who was talking about people putting guns to your head?  No one.  But, when I go to a convention, a game store to run public games, online on VTTs, people expect me to run the rules as they are printed in the book.  So if the book says to not play orcs as evil, if the rules say to use imaginary pronouns, etc., then I'm going to lose my convention ticket, my spot at the table, my access to the VTT (see Roll20 for direct examples of this) if I'm not toeing the line.  We were all fine playing our games whatever way we wanted to, until the woke came along and infiltrated the companies that make the games, the moderators of the message boards about the games, and the VTTs where people play the games.

I wasn't talking about guns to the head either. You did answer my question and brought up some things I'm not familiar with so that's helpful. Do you have a specific example where you, or anyone in fact, was actually ejected from a public game or a convention for running a game with evil orcs, or refused to use imaginary pronouns when the game system required it, or otherwise refused to play ball with woke terminology? Your response was only broadly claiming that it's something what would happen, and I'd like to know if it has happened and how regularly it does happen.

On Roll20, again, I'd like to know when have they actively barred people from using their service for not complying with woke terminology or woke games? I did an admittedly brief Google and didn't find much - I skimmed their Community Guidelines and it looks pretty standard for any online media or games company, but enlighten me if I missed something - and in the thread here on woke game companies, all it says is they've publicly supported BLM (and if you want to boycott them for that then that's on you), and they pulled a sponsor from a livestream because they "didn't want more straight white guys", which is a quote which has no source, so if you can give more information on that please do.

QuoteThe whole "if they don't kick down your door" argument is tendentious bullshit.  I tell you what, would you complain if your favorite game posted a preface in its next edition that stated that there were only two sexes and "trans" doesn't exist, not in the real world or in their world?  Would you keep playing it?  Would you ask your players to abide by that as a condition of using a VTT or going to a convention?  You'd still have your home game, so you'd be fine with that, right?

This isn't a "problem" for leftists because it's the people they want to shut up that are getting affected.  Flip the ideology getting attacked in the games and we'd never hear the end of the whining...

As you answered my question I'll answer yours. I probably wouldn't publicly complain if my favourite game did that, I might be disappointed, and I'd stop giving the creators my money (as would many others, shortly before it goes out of business), and maybe find a way to hack whatever was unique about the game itself into another system. I don't use VTTs or go to conventions, and neither do my players, but if in order to be allowed entry we literally had to swear on a copy of Harry Potter that there are only two genders and trans people don't exist, and during our games we couldn't use the singular 'they' pronoun under any circumstances, then yeah - I'd probably not go, and advise my players not to either. But we wouldn't be missing much.