Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

This question assumes every PC in the game is a "hero". The heroes of a story are the ones that didn't die along the way. All those other pirates, soldiers, and mercenaries that perished alongside Elric and Conan include the dead PCs.

Bran Mak Morn dies in battle and then is worshiped:

"After Bran's death, his debased people made him into a god. Part of his consciousness was preserved in a statue, and he was worshipped as the Dark Man. A cult to him even survived down through the centuries, with his idol and its cultists surfacing again in "Children of the Night," a Lovecraftian horror story set in the 1930s."
-from conan.com

Obviously not the most popular fictional hero, yet a well written one. I always liked Bran Mak Morn and Kull over Conan myself.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AMOther than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

Does Game of Thrones count?

Quote from: Zalman on January 03, 2025, 06:51:20 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

This question assumes every PC in the game is a "hero". The heroes of a story are the ones that didn't die along the way. All those other pirates, soldiers, and mercenaries that perished alongside Elric and Conan include the dead PCs.

Those pirates and mercenaries and etc weren't PCs. They were characters in a story who died because the author said so. In an old school RPG they would (arguably) be the hirelings and followers.
But I also think it's a mistake to go too far into the weeds of simulating story. That way leads to story games where they do try to write a story at the gaming table.

Quote from: bat on January 03, 2025, 11:17:10 AMBran Mak Morn dies in battle and then is worshiped:

"After Bran's death, his debased people made him into a god. Part of his consciousness was preserved in a statue, and he was worshipped as the Dark Man. A cult to him even survived down through the centuries, with his idol and its cultists surfacing again in "Children of the Night," a Lovecraftian horror story set in the 1930s."
-from conan.com

Fair enough. I thought I'd read all the Bran Mak Morn stories, but I either missed or forgot that bit. I asked the question out of genuine curiosity. It wasn't meant as a "gotcha".

Quote from: bat on January 03, 2025, 11:17:10 AMI always liked Bran Mak Morn and Kull over Conan myself.

Same. In my personal canon, Solomon Kane and Kull are broadly tied for best Howard characters, and then Bran Mak Morn and Conan. I haven't gotten to reading the El Borak or Steve Costigan stories yet, though.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 03, 2025, 01:53:51 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AMOther than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

Does Game of Thrones count?

Genre definitions are slippery, but I would not call GOT sword and sorcery. "Political Fantasy", maybe?

Game of Thrones has limited relevance to the "what is true D&D?" conversation. It's the only narrative fiction I'm aware of where protagonists routinely die pointless deaths due to little more than misfortune, and that's really what we're talking about with high-lethality D&D. However, classic D&D does predate GOT by a long way, so you can't really argue that it was influenced by it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 03, 2025, 02:27:24 PM

Quote from: Zalman on January 03, 2025, 06:51:20 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

This question assumes every PC in the game is a "hero". The heroes of a story are the ones that didn't die along the way. All those other pirates, soldiers, and mercenaries that perished alongside Elric and Conan include the dead PCs.

Those pirates and mercenaries and etc weren't PCs. They were characters in a story who died because the author said so. In an old school RPG they would (arguably) be the hirelings and followers.
But I also think it's a mistake to go too far into the weeds of simulating story. That way leads to story games where they do try to write a story at the gaming table.

I agree on both points. Rather than "hero", it would probably have been clearer to say "protagonist". If you're going to analogize RPGs with prose fiction, the players may or may not be heroes, but they definitely are protagonists.

I brought this up because it never sits right to me when people refer to D&D as a "sword and sorcery" game. S&S is fundamentally a literary genre, so if you're calling something an S&S game, that suggests to me that the game is setting out to emulate the fiction genre. D&D does in some respects, but clearly and intentionally doesn't in many others.

I thought about starting a separate thread by going point-by-point through where D&D does and does not emulate S&S fiction, but to do it right would have to be a long and detailed post, and I don't think anyone other than me really cares. I know full well that I'm shouting into the void on this particular issue.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 09:41:54 AM

Quote from: bat on January 03, 2025, 11:17:10 AMBran Mak Morn dies in battle and then is worshiped:

"After Bran's death, his debased people made him into a god. Part of his consciousness was preserved in a statue, and he was worshipped as the Dark Man. A cult to him even survived down through the centuries, with his idol and its cultists surfacing again in "Children of the Night," a Lovecraftian horror story set in the 1930s."
-from conan.com

Fair enough. I thought I'd read all the Bran Mak Morn stories, but I either missed or forgot that bit. I asked the question out of genuine curiosity. It wasn't meant as a "gotcha".

Quote from: bat on January 03, 2025, 11:17:10 AMI always liked Bran Mak Morn and Kull over Conan myself.

Same. In my personal canon, Solomon Kane and Kull are broadly tied for best Howard characters, and then Bran Mak Morn and Conan. I haven't gotten to reading the El Borak or Steve Costigan stories yet, though.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 03, 2025, 01:53:51 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AMOther than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

Does Game of Thrones count?

Genre definitions are slippery, but I would not call GOT sword and sorcery. "Political Fantasy", maybe?

Game of Thrones has limited relevance to the "what is true D&D?" conversation. It's the only narrative fiction I'm aware of where protagonists routinely die pointless deaths due to little more than misfortune, and that's really what we're talking about with high-lethality D&D. However, classic D&D does predate GOT by a long way, so you can't really argue that it was influenced by it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 03, 2025, 02:27:24 PM

Quote from: Zalman on January 03, 2025, 06:51:20 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

This question assumes every PC in the game is a "hero". The heroes of a story are the ones that didn't die along the way. All those other pirates, soldiers, and mercenaries that perished alongside Elric and Conan include the dead PCs.

Those pirates and mercenaries and etc weren't PCs. They were characters in a story who died because the author said so. In an old school RPG they would (arguably) be the hirelings and followers.
But I also think it's a mistake to go too far into the weeds of simulating story. That way leads to story games where they do try to write a story at the gaming table.

I agree on both points. Rather than "hero", it would probably have been clearer to say "protagonist". If you're going to analogize RPGs with prose fiction, the players may or may not be heroes, but they definitely are protagonists.

I brought this up because it never sits right to me when people refer to D&D as a "sword and sorcery" game. S&S is fundamentally a literary genre, so if you're calling something an S&S game, that suggests to me that the game is setting out to emulate the fiction genre. D&D does in some respects, but clearly and intentionally doesn't in many others.

I thought about starting a separate thread by going point-by-point through where D&D does and does not emulate S&S fiction, but to do it right would have to be a long and detailed post, and I don't think anyone other than me really cares. I know full well that I'm shouting into the void on this particular issue.

Lots of Clark Ashton Smith's protagonists die since the unifying element are the settings rather than chatacters. There are also more Micheal Moorcock examples like Corum, and while its not S&S its relarively common in mythology and other classics for the cool guy to die (Cu Cuthlainn, Beowulf etc)

@ForgottenF my post wasn't meant as a 'gotcha' either, and I am no Howard scholar, I just grew up in Idaho and was alone a lot as a kid and read voraciously.

@ Slambo excellent point with CAS and Mythology (I teach it at a college currently)- from Gilgamesh to Odysseus and Ragnarok, where not even the gods are exempt from death we see heroes and deities succumb to the inevitable.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 09:41:54 AMGenre definitions are slippery, but I would not call GOT sword and sorcery. "Political Fantasy", maybe?

Game of Thrones has limited relevance to the "what is true D&D?" conversation. It's the only narrative fiction I'm aware of where protagonists routinely die pointless deaths due to little more than misfortune, and that's really what we're talking about with high-lethality D&D. However, classic D&D does predate GOT by a long way, so you can't really argue that it was influenced by it.

From what I read the Song of Ice and Fire was based on a GURPs campaign. I'd call it Dark Fantasy.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 06, 2025, 05:42:09 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 09:41:54 AMGenre definitions are slippery, but I would not call GOT sword and sorcery. "Political Fantasy", maybe?

Game of Thrones has limited relevance to the "what is true D&D?" conversation. It's the only narrative fiction I'm aware of where protagonists routinely die pointless deaths due to little more than misfortune, and that's really what we're talking about with high-lethality D&D. However, classic D&D does predate GOT by a long way, so you can't really argue that it was influenced by it.

From what I read the Song of Ice and Fire was based on a GURPs campaign. I'd call it Dark Fantasy.

I know "Malazan: Book of the fallen" was based on a GURPS campaign, but I had never heard that Martin's series were. 

Quote from: DocJones on January 08, 2025, 12:06:36 PMI know "Malazan: Book of the fallen" was based on a GURPS campaign, but I had never heard that Martin's series were. 

I think I probably go the idea from an RPGPundit post. All I can find directly is George RR Martin loved Superworld and Call of Cthulu by Chaosium

I found the interview with Martin in my collection of Dragon magazines (May 2003).

Quote from: GRR MartinWhen I first started gaming back in the 80's, we played different games. We played Morrow Project. Then we played a lot of Call of Cthulhu- that was one of our favorites for years- then Superworld which was a superhero game. That ultimately gave birth to the Wild Cards series. Those were all fun, and we had a lot of good times with those games, but each game had its own set of rules. What was annoying about that was that every time you picked a game, you had to learn a different set of rules.  Then GURPS came along. It appealed to us greatly, because it was one system that was good for any game.