Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2025, 04:57:07 PMThere are plenty of real-life combat veterans who don't enjoy gory movies. That isn't a sign that they're weak. It's that they know that real life gore isn't enjoyable.

There are?  You've personally surveyed them and determined their motives?  See, this is the bullshit that gets slipped in when he thinks there is no one watching carefully.

There are many reasons that someone/anyone might not like gory movies.  You have nothing, outside of maybe a handful anecdotes (and, as I know how flimsy your understanding of the scientific method is, I'll remind you that the plural of anecdote is not data), to suggest that the reason any particular veteran doesn't like gore in movies is related to their perception of real life gore.  YOU are the person who cannot separate fiction from reality, not these hypothetical veterans.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 01, 2025, 05:12:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2025, 04:57:07 PMThere are plenty of real-life combat veterans who don't enjoy gory movies. That isn't a sign that they're weak. It's that they know that real life gore isn't enjoyable.

There are?  You've personally surveyed them and determined their motives?  See, this is the bullshit that gets slipped in when he thinks there is no one watching carefully.

There are many reasons that someone/anyone might not like gory movies.  You have nothing, outside of maybe a handful anecdotes (and, as I know how flimsy your understanding of the scientific method is, I'll remind you that the plural of anecdote is not data), to suggest that the reason any particular veteran doesn't like gore in movies is related to their perception of real life gore.  YOU are the person who cannot separate fiction from reality, not these hypothetical veterans.

I would have to say that people are people. My uncle psychologically tortured me with animal parts and other grisly things in my early youth (he was a combat veteran from the Korean war and he is pretty far out there, still) in addition when I was 8 years old I saw a toddler get its head splattered inside a windshield when a bee caused a driver to crash and the child was standing on the passenger's lap when the driver hit a truck's bumper. Then hunting with dad for deer and elk and his grisly sense of humor (my uncle's brother). Then teaching English overseas in a jungle environment for two years and meeting cannibals and seeing a lot of pointless deaths. I have a morbid sense of humor and I hang out with combat vets who have seen worse than me. We all watch gory movie, although our actual gaming is pretty mellow for the most part, although combat can get a little GWAR-ish. Everyone is different. I am not saying that every combat vet has seen grisly stuff, I am not saying none like gory movies or that all do, I am saying that we all react to life differently.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 01, 2025, 11:32:58 AMI believe Gygax up to his death I believe played Castles and Crusades (much like the older D&D and AD&D) and not the WOTC versions of D&D that were put out.

Gygax didn't run Castles & Crusades, although he did have some of his adventures published under that system (and he had some published under the d20 System, too). However, even then he wrote his material in either AD&D or Lejendary Adventures format, and the staff at Troll Lord Games converted it to C&C stats, et cetera. (TLG has always had some editing issues, but this caused even more editing problems in some published material; for example, the conversion of the Lejendary Adventures money system to C&C in the Yggsburgh setting book was all sorts of screwed up.) FWIW, Rob Kuntz took the same approach with his material that was published for C&C: he wrote it in AD&D terms and it was converted to C&C for publication.

Gary ran his Lejendary Adventures RPG, and that's where his interest was focused. In his later years he was *WAY* more interested in LA than in D&D (which, after all, was a game owned by another company at that point). He wasn't against making some money by publishing material for C&C, though (e.g., the "Castle Zagyg" effort for C&C which fell apart after his passing).

He did occasionally run D&D for people: usually original D&D with Castle Greyhawk. But it wasn't his main thing. Like I said, LA was his thing. He was also excited about a sci-fi variant of his LA system that he was working on. And he was excited about a board game he designed called King of England, King of France (which Troll Lord Games was going to publish, but all of the plans with TLG fell apart after he passed -- I should note that it wasn't TLG's doing that brought all those projects to a halt).

Quote from: bat on January 01, 2025, 07:17:06 PMWe all watch gory movie, although our actual gaming is pretty mellow for the most part, although combat can get a little GWAR-ish. Everyone is different. I am not saying that every combat vet has seen grisly stuff, I am not saying none like gory movies or that all do, I am saying that we all react to life differently.

I agree with this. If I implied anything differently, it was a failure of communication.

My primary point was that someone's taste in movies or in fantasy gaming isn't related to how tough they are in real life.

If someone who doesn't like playing RPG adventures where it's expected that PCs will die, that's not a real-life weakness. It's a difference in taste.

Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2025, 07:38:04 PMIf someone who doesn't like playing RPG adventures where it's expected that PCs will die, that's not a real-life weakness. It's a difference in taste.

Sure, but that's NOT D&D. There are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery. Like I sure as hell wouldn't expect my character to die in an Amber game, ever. The GM could make my PCs life a miserable hell, but death? That's a campaign-altering event. But D&D, like real D&D, needs PC death as a very real possibility or the entire game is undermined.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 01, 2025, 05:12:33 PMYou have nothing, outside of maybe a handful anecdotes (and, as I know how flimsy your understanding of the scientific method is, I'll remind you that the plural of anecdote is not data), to suggest that the reason any particular veteran doesn't like gore in movies is related to their perception of real life gore.

He always seem to have the perfect anecdote to back up whatever point he is trying to make at the moment.  It's almost like they are tailor made for that purpose.  A cynical person would think he is just making this shit up.

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

Guaranteed character death is not a requirement. The possibility of character death IS a requirement. D&D is a game, not a story. When playing, the survival of the hero is determined in play. The character may live or die, or become injured and forced to flee, or captured, etc. Game play is open ended. Once you take certain outcomes off the table you enter the realm of story crafting rather than game play and thus, are no longer playing D&D.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 02, 2025, 07:39:40 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:26:12 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 01, 2025, 09:13:08 PMThere are plenty of games where death is highly unlikely, and perhaps even impossible, but if there's no possibly of death, that's not pulp or swords and sorcery.

Other than Elric, is there a classic sword & sorcery hero that canonically dies in action? I don't think I know of any.

Guaranteed character death is not a requirement. The possibility of character death IS a requirement. D&D is a game, not a story. When playing, the survival of the hero is determined in play. The character may live or die, or become injured and forced to flee, or captured, etc. Game play is open ended. Once you take certain outcomes off the table you enter the realm of story crafting rather than game play and thus, are no longer playing D&D.

Yeah, I get all that. But I wouldn't talk about the high lethality of old-school D&D in terms of genre emulation. It's one of several points where D&D goes in exactly the opposite direction of the fiction it takes inspiration from.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 02, 2025, 12:23:28 PMYeah, I get all that. But I wouldn't talk about the high lethality of old-school D&D in terms of genre emulation. It's one of several points where D&D goes in exactly the opposite direction of the fiction it takes inspiration from.

Well because it's a game, not a story. REH can't kill off Conan because...then what? Iconic literary character dead, end of stories. But if my Conan clone dies in-game, I can make another one and continue playing in the campaign without any real interruption. So you're right that D&D sort of inverts this considering the source material, but you could also simply say that for every Conan there were about a million other barbarians who died or whatever.

Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2025, 07:38:04 PM

Quote from: bat on January 01, 2025, 07:17:06 PMWe all watch gory movie, although our actual gaming is pretty mellow for the most part, although combat can get a little GWAR-ish. Everyone is different. I am not saying that every combat vet has seen grisly stuff, I am not saying none like gory movies or that all do, I am saying that we all react to life differently.

I agree with this. If I implied anything differently, it was a failure of communication.

My primary point was that someone's taste in movies or in fantasy gaming isn't related to how tough they are in real life.

If someone who doesn't like playing RPG adventures where it's expected that PCs will die, that's not a real-life weakness. It's a difference in taste.

I can certainly agree with you on that, but working your analogy, the X card's introduction to D&D is like a movie theatre introducing a button that you can press when you don't like what's happening in the movie to change the script.

Just don't go to those type of movies or leave (as I did when watching 'Saving Private Ryan').

As you say, if you don't like PC's dying, play an RPG where that isn't the possibility. I think Fate 3e only allows character death if the player allows it, or something like Golden Sky Stories or Ryuutama maybe?

Quote from: ponta1010 on January 02, 2025, 04:20:30 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2025, 07:38:04 PMMy primary point was that someone's taste in movies or in fantasy gaming isn't related to how tough they are in real life.

If someone who doesn't like playing RPG adventures where it's expected that PCs will die, that's not a real-life weakness. It's a difference in taste.

I can certainly agree with you on that, but working your analogy, the X card's introduction to D&D is like a movie theatre introducing a button that you can press when you don't like what's happening in the movie to change the script.

Just don't go to those type of movies or leave (as I did when watching 'Saving Private Ryan').

That's a weird analogy to me, since I love RPGs precisely because they let you change the script. I'd be happy to try out a button to rescript a movie, if it worked well enough.

As a non-hypothetical analogy, some people will look away or fast forward through bits of a movie if it's particularly gross or gory. I managed to sit through _Saving Private Ryan_ without walking out when I saw it in the theaters, but it bugged me and I think I looked away some. If I had first seen it at home on video, I might have fast-forwarded parts, but still watched more to see how it ended.

It seems like a purism argument that if there's a film, someone should either only watch the whole thing with no looking away or fast-forwarding, or not watch it at all. Likewise, in RPGs,

Quote from: ponta1010 on January 02, 2025, 04:20:30 PMAs you say, if you don't like PC's dying, play an RPG where that isn't the possibility. I think Fate 3e only allows character death if the player allows it, or something like Golden Sky Stories or Ryuutama maybe?

I've never felt bound to follow exactly the rules as written. If someone wants to house-rule a FATE 3E to have mechanical character death, or house-rule D&D death rules, I don't see a problem with that.

I might not like a particular house rule for myself, but if everyone in a given gaming group likes the house rule, then that's their business.

Quote from: ponta1010 on January 02, 2025, 04:20:30 PMRyuutama maybe?

Characters can die in Ryuutama.

Quote from: jhkim on January 02, 2025, 06:36:05 PM

Quote from: ponta1010 on January 02, 2025, 04:20:30 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 01, 2025, 07:38:04 PMMy primary point was that someone's taste in movies or in fantasy gaming isn't related to how tough they are in real life.

If someone who doesn't like playing RPG adventures where it's expected that PCs will die, that's not a real-life weakness. It's a difference in taste.

I can certainly agree with you on that, but working your analogy, the X card's introduction to D&D is like a movie theatre introducing a button that you can press when you don't like what's happening in the movie to change the script.

Just don't go to those type of movies or leave (as I did when watching 'Saving Private Ryan').

That's a weird analogy to me, since I love RPGs precisely because they let you change the script. I'd be happy to try out a button to rescript a movie, if it worked well enough.

As a non-hypothetical analogy, some people will look away or fast forward through bits of a movie if it's particularly gross or gory. I managed to sit through _Saving Private Ryan_ without walking out when I saw it in the theaters, but it bugged me and I think I looked away some. If I had first seen it at home on video, I might have fast-forwarded parts, but still watched more to see how it ended.

It seems like a purism argument that if there's a film, someone should either only watch the whole thing with no looking away or fast-forwarding, or not watch it at all. Likewise, in RPGs,

Quote from: ponta1010 on January 02, 2025, 04:20:30 PMAs you say, if you don't like PC's dying, play an RPG where that isn't the possibility. I think Fate 3e only allows character death if the player allows it, or something like Golden Sky Stories or Ryuutama maybe?

I've never felt bound to follow exactly the rules as written. If someone wants to house-rule a FATE 3E to have mechanical character death, or house-rule D&D death rules, I don't see a problem with that.

I might not like a particular house rule for myself, but if everyone in a given gaming group likes the house rule, then that's their business.

Except we're not talking about any of that.  We're not discussing houserules about lethality.  We're talking about a game that directly, in its rules, prescribes processes for other players to invalidate the GM's actions or adventures with no push-back or recourse.  As always, you've gone off on some tangent that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Quote from: ponta1010 on January 02, 2025, 04:20:30 PMI can certainly agree with you on that, but working your analogy, the X card's introduction to D&D is like a movie theatre introducing a button that you can press when you don't like what's happening in the movie to change the script.

That's a good way to think about it, but then again look at the outrage brigade take to the streets when someone dares to make a game or movie they find "problematic". They use the hecklers veto to a ludicrous degree, which is why the only real response is to ignore them and tell them to fuck off if they try to invade your game with X cards or whatever else.