Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?

If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.

So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.

To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?

If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.

So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.

To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.

In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:43:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?

If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.

So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.

To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.

In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.

Except if you die then you die, you don't rise from the dead. How does TORG avoid the world being overrun by werewolves if every human they kill becomes one?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:59:35 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:43:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?

If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.

So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.

To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.

In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.

Except if you die then you die, you don't rise from the dead. How does TORG avoid the world being overrun by werewolves if every human they kill becomes one?

I believe they have to be "marked by darkness" (an Orrosh zone trait) to come back as a werewolf. IIRC, non-darkness-tainted victims just die and stay dead. I skimmed through a friend's Orrosh book but don't have it with me to check.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 01:15:05 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:59:35 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:43:27 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?

If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.

So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.

To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.

In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.

Except if you die then you die, you don't rise from the dead. How does TORG avoid the world being overrun by werewolves if every human they kill becomes one?

I believe they have to be "marked by darkness" (an Orrosh zone trait) to come back as a werewolf. IIRC, non-darkness-tainted victims just die and stay dead. I skimmed through a friend's Orrosh book but don't have it with me to check.

Right, and that does make it feel more like a curse.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.

BX/BECMI D&D had a setting/expansion book called Night Howlers. It covered a mini campaign in a region where werewolves were trying to live peacefully and found their own little kingdom for shapechangers. And some new monsters.

The rest of the book covered playing a lycanthrope PC.

The zombie apocalypse problem is a concern. You can reduce the infectivity and increase the number of things that kill werewolves to compensate.

Technically speaking, the idea of transmissible bites originates from Hollywood, possibly due to confusion with vampires. Before then, lycanthropy was caused by curses cast by witches or saints, or a skill learned by witches or other evil beings (like vampires).

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.

Can't speak for others. Personally, I think that as a DM I'd rather avoid having a werewolf PC in general. Kind of a no win scenario to me. If you let them control the transformation, it's an upgrade. If you run it more traditionally, it's just a hassle. Now you have to track phases of the moon and derail the game for one night every month to deal with it. The first couple times it'll be interesting. PCs wake up to find some friendly ally murdered or get attacked by one of their compatriots in wolf form. Good stuff. Problem is that after one or two times, they're going to clock what's going on and come up with a reliable countermeasure. Then it just becomes a minor hassle and eventually a boring routine.

Sorry, I need to make a correction. In a number of cultures, religious leaders have spiritual animal connections loosely analogous to the D&D druid. While they don't transform, they do engage in spiritual combat that invokes the power of animal totems.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 29, 2024, 10:30:11 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.

Can't speak for others. Personally, I think that as a DM I'd rather avoid having a werewolf PC in general. Kind of a no win scenario to me. If you let them control the transformation, it's an upgrade. If you run it more traditionally, it's just a hassle. Now you have to track phases of the moon and derail the game for one night every month to deal with it. The first couple times it'll be interesting. PCs wake up to find some friendly ally murdered or get attacked by one of their compatriots in wolf form. Good stuff. Problem is that after one or two times, they're going to clock what's going on and come up with a reliable countermeasure. Then it just becomes a minor hassle and eventually a boring routine.

Yeah, the problem with the Talbot style lycanthropy is that it's a one-trick pony. There's only so many stories you can tell with such precise limitations. Werewolf themed media has been hugely stagnant as a result of this.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2024, 08:16:55 AMThe zombie apocalypse problem is a concern. You can reduce the infectivity and increase the number of things that kill werewolves to compensate.

AD&D 2e has some good limitations on it. Only true lycans (who are born as one) can infect others and spread chance is based on the dmg you suffered (1% per dmg). The true lycan condition really stops the zombie apocalypse problem, but also creates this interesting story element where infected lycans will try to kidnap people to bring to their pact leader (a true lycan) if they try to spread.

I'm reminded of Shiki, an anime/manga/light novel where a vampire family plots to take over a rural town and surrounding villages into making their own haven. While it is obviously vampires for us the audience, people's first reaction is some kind of anemia epidemic and many reject the idea that its vampires because its year 1994 in Japan. It takes 3+ months before people learn its really vampires.

IMO, werewolves have too many things stacked against them to do a similar takeover. Vampires can feed and then spread on the same target. Werewolves have to decide if they will eat or spread (assuming they are intelligent and in control when transformed). Any surviving victim will know some huge animal or monster attacked them which will prompt other humans to form hunting parties while vampires can stay hidden. Vampires have hypnotism and mind control powers while werewolves don't so no human conspirators unwillingly helping you. The infected has to wait for the next full moon to be considered part of the team werewolf while vampires can rise anytime, so once people realize what is going on they have time to find and apply countermeasures. And a big monster attacking will draw hunters much sooner than a vague "people start dying with bug bites" rumors from vampires.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.

While lycanthropy hasn't specifically been one of them, the general handshake of a player losing control over a PC has come up a few times in campaigns I have been in.

As a general rule of thumb I never like taking control away from a player. Quite the contrary; I tend to work with the player in metagame and frame the things the PC realizes or knows in such a way that the player can roleplay into it. If you want the werewolf PC to attack their significant other right before transforming, drop in a significant clue that said significant other is cheating.

My basic thought process is that if the PC has lycanthropy, they should wind up attacking someone at some point. Probably multiple people or attacking the same person multiple times. Exactly who and how? I think that's fair to give the player some metagame awareness of and veto power over. But you're playing a werewolf. You're going to bite some people and 9 times out of 10, the victims will be people the PC holds dear and not enemies.

My job as the GM is to drop the lycanthrope transformation in at the right moment.

Another thing that I tend to do is give the actual transformation a mind-clearing effect rather than a mind-fogging one. After the transformation, you are more likely to be able to see what was the lycanthropy talking and what wasn't, but at that point you are fully monster and (the way I play it) you lose the ability to speak and NPCs are quite likely to attempt to kill you. Some werewolves roleplay still being insane as cover to commit assault or murder, but many times they don't. Even if you don't, you are likely to get cornered by NPCs attempting to kill you, and they may force you to kill them in self defense.

Typically, I don't let lycanthropy actually become contagious from a bite. Giving it a reproductive effect makes it too powerful, to the point that everyone in-universe should become a werewolf given time, so I default to a werewolf bite not spreading the disease unless there are special circumstances which happen just enough to sustain lycanthropy in the setting, but not enough to make it prevalent. Making the few instances that a bite turns into spread into an in-universe urban legend preys on the victims' or NPC's minds. It's generally more interesting to see the townsfolk panic than anything else.

My point is that you don't really need to wrench control away from the player to force things to go a certain way. The PC transformed and the player wants to flee? The town guard cornered him, and the PC kills five guards in self-defense. The townsfolk view it as the werewolf attacking the town guard and the PC views it as justified self-defense.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2024, 08:16:55 AMThe zombie apocalypse problem is a concern. You can reduce the infectivity and increase the number of things that kill werewolves to compensate.

Technically speaking, the idea of transmissible bites originates from Hollywood, possibly due to confusion with vampires. Before then, lycanthropy was caused by curses cast by witches or saints, or a skill learned by witches or other evil beings (like vampires).

Same setting I mentioned above actually went through exactly this problem and for a span lycanthropes threatened to overrun the world.

Someone fought them so much that they eventually ascended to godhood and became the patron of lycanthrope hunters and probably introduced methods of putting them down to the point they are no longer capable of becoming a world threatening menace.

If I recall right there is a kinda-sorta god of shapechangers puttering around too. I'd have to dig the book out and check.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.

Last campaign it was explicitly called out in the setting as a transmissable curse, rather than a disease, IIRC. So the paladin couldn't trivialise it. It's something that can be controlled by strong-willed individuals who isolate themselves in the wilderness. Also, since it's trying to make 5e a little more difficult, that setting (Runewild) has curses grow stronger over time & take more and more castings of Remove Curse to actually get rid of.

So the player who got bit by the were-stag got to keep playing. However, he had to make a Wisdom save to not transform on the night of the full moon. The next month, the DC went up by one, and it was from the night before through the night after. Each additional month, the days at risk went up by 2 and the DC by one.

The players found a different way to postpone solving the problem - I usually add a bunch of outside adventures into packaged settings, and the players found in the one they seriously engaged with a magical silver rope that forces shapechanged creatures into their natural forms. Every night the barbarian was at risk of transforming (they learned the hard way one month that the risks were increasing) they tied him up from dusk to dawn.

The first tavern he transformed in the middle of dinner didn't want them back, but that was in a town with too many taverns anyhow. And they hadn't yet been ambushed in the middle of a moon-ridden night when the campaign ended for other reasons.

I just think it's hilarious that, by RAW in 5e, two battling packs of werewolves can't actually hurt each other at all.

It's really going to depend on your edition, I'm guessing (without having looked at it in every edition).