Quote from: Zak S on December 23, 2024, 02:24:08 PM

Quote from: BadApple on December 23, 2024, 02:18:46 PM

Quote from: Zak S on December 23, 2024, 02:04:43 PMYou're weirdly assuming my goal is to be on good terms with bad actors. It's not.

The theme of "forum members saying pointing out bad things members of that forum do isnt' a good way to be friends with the forum members" is a repetitive and silly problem. The idea that someone might be typing not to make friends with you but rather to communicate a message of their own which they know you won't like but is important to communicate to others seems to fly over your head.

Is your purpose to clearly communicate your thoughts or is it to throw thoughts out there so that you get a negative response?

Leading question with unnecessarily limited options.

The purpose of my original message that the Pundit reprinted was to clearly lay out a contract with fans--which was clearly laid out to that audience.

The purpose of my conversation here afterward is to:

1-Correct misinformation for the benefit of third parties reading the thread
and
2-Clearly identify for third parties reading which members of the forum speaking are responsible for spreading misinformation or otherwise untrustworthy.

It looks as though you've made the naïve mistake of assuming that just because someone's messages are responses to you in a public place that the primary audience is you.

If you raise a concern, I'll address it--but not primarily for your benefit (I assume most people here will never ever admit to being persuaded of anything that doesn't fit their schtick). I am addressing it for the benefit of people who are reading the exchange but not participating.

Alternately, maybe you didn't make that mistake but--giving in to a common nerd tendency to try to exhibit superiority--your reaction to seeing your takeaway was wrong wasn't to go "Sorry I got that wrong" but instead to turn it around and go "You are bad at communication, that must be why I got it wrong". This is a common tactic.

Quote from: Zak S on December 23, 2024, 02:25:02 PM

Quote from: strollofturtle on December 23, 2024, 02:20:16 PM

Quote from: Zak S on December 23, 2024, 01:54:42 PMRepeat:

QuoteYou'd have a point if I said "All nerds" rather than "nerds".

Again, saying "people go to Disneyland" does not imply all people do.

"Most people" does indeed imply more than half the population of humanity.  That is literally what it means to say that.

Feel free to retract your statements if you are admitting that you were inaccurately using language and thus (inadvertently presumably) spreading misinformation.

If you feel I made an inaccurate "most nerds" statement, you can quote it and I will evaluate it and see if I was imprecise.

AHAHAHAHAH!

This is too funny.  I wake up, have my morning cup of tea, and get the funniest unintentional comedy.

Quote from: SHARK on December 24, 2024, 12:39:42 AMHey there Eirikrautha! You know, something else I have noticed about some people. They conduct their social interactions and conversations like everyone involved is on trial in a court. That kind of legalistic approach to conversation and socializing to be eye-rollingly annoying, and kind of sad. Such an approach to socializing and conversation demonstrates a huge chip on their shoulder and likely long-standing social problems.

All of the yammering about "Misinformation" and calls to "Prove It!" or "You need to show evidence!" Blah Blah. No, people don't. The people yammering on like that can pound sound. Fucking conversations between people face to face or even here, especially online, are not college debates or episodes of fucking court trials. You know? It's like, Geesus, man. Get a life, and go outside and touch grass. *Laughing*

Hey Shark, I understand where you're coming from, but there's an important point to consider in this context. This isn't about abstract debates or theoretical constructs—it's about real consequences on someone's life. In this case, Zak's reputation was unjustly dragged through the mud based on misinformation spread by bad actors, and it's had a tangible, damaging impact.

There's proof that these claims were unfounded, yet some people still perpetuate the lies without acknowledging the truth that's come to light over time. Setting the record straight isn't about being overly legalistic—it's about correcting falsehoods and restoring fairness, even when it's a hard pill for some to swallow.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 23, 2024, 09:29:10 PM

Quote from: katiefol on December 23, 2024, 01:58:41 PMBut, as soon as it turns into personal critique and opinion and misinformation based on THAT -- it becomes judgement. And that should be halted.

First... what?  Judgment is a vital part of human cognition.  Judgment is how our ancient ancestors decided whether to scurry up the tree when the grass started waving or whether it was just the wind.  Someone without the capacity for judgment would be completely incapable from telling truth from falsehood, believable from unbelievable.  So, I don't know what you are expecting here, but no one with any sense is going to stop judging everyone and everything.

Second, it is my sincerest hope that half of these new accounts are sock puppets (I have no proof of this, but I certainly hope they are).  Because, if you are actual people, you are the saddest, most pathetic group of followers I've ever experienced.  Seriously, there is no one, and I mean no one, in my 50+ years of life who I would simp for to the level that some of you have for Zack.  It's actually creepy, like cult-deprogramming-worthy creepy.  If you are what "non-judgmental" looks like... well, it's a good thing that most people are very judgmental...

If you read my post, I mentioned "overly judgmental". That means not devoid of judgement completely but judging without proof or reasoning. Further, the level of militant labeling is off the charts. Guys, you have nothing to fear. 😄

- General Sock Puppet.

Quote from: Zak S on December 23, 2024, 04:19:36 PMThere's no reason to keep typing. You'll never convince me, I will never convince you.

Facts don't require convincing, but feel free to deny them if you like.

QuoteYou didn't post proof.

Of course not, you did. I simply judged what you posted.

Quote from: dvar on December 24, 2024, 05:07:30 AMHey Shark, I understand where you're coming from, but there's an important point to consider in this context. This isn't about abstract debates or theoretical constructs—it's about real consequences on someone's life. In this case, Zak's reputation was unjustly dragged through the mud based on misinformation spread by bad actors, and it's had a tangible, damaging impact.

No, Zak's own online behaviour, in the past and currently in this thread, on his own blog and in others, does enough to drag his name through the mud without any of the court-case-related drama or the references to his lifestyle.

After nearly 400 posts on this thread, my conclusion from early this year remains unshaken:

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 02, 2024, 11:42:42 AMAt this point, I think the only thing to do with Zak is to commend him to the Divine Mercy.

I do not understand the relationship between this thread and the topic of the forum (Pen and paper RPG discussion?)... never mind...

Quote from: dvar on December 24, 2024, 05:07:30 AMIn this case, [shitmuffin]'s reputation was unjustly dragged through the mud based on misinformation spread by bad actors, and it's had a tangible, damaging impact.

Shitmuffin is a shit designer and a degenerate, arrogant asshole. That's not "misinformation," that's the fucking truth.

If you believe otherwise, I'm going to assume you're either shitmuffin himself, a sock puppet, or a sycophantic jackass whose opinion isn't worth the time it takes to read -- so don't bother replying.

One thing Zak seemed to imply that I think he's wrong about is the suggestion that most gamers think he's doing something "for the money".

I often get accused of that (which is at most a distortion of the truth: I do make game products hoping to make money from them, but I've never made a product I didn't myself like for money), but Zak? I'll assume some people have made that claim, but personally I've heard far more people claim that Zak is some kind of "trust fund baby" than that Zak is in RPGs for cash.

But I think that most people I've run into who've heard of Zak think he's very much in it for his reputation, for his self-image, a belief that is reflected even by some posts in this thread. I've heard far more people saying that Zak is desperate to be seen as some kind of avant-garde great innovative thinker & artist, and to be admired by the kind of people who tend to admire that archetype. That he may or may not need money, but what he's really longing to achieve is respectabilite from exactly the demographic that instead fall for some of the very lefty-progressive "game designers" that have attacked and cancelled him over and over again through the years, and who lump him in with the "yr right wing bs" based people he so obviously looks down upon.

Quote from: RPGPundit on Today at 12:07:39 AMOne thing Zak seemed to imply that I think he's wrong about is the suggestion that most gamers think he's doing something "for the money".

I often get accused of that (which is at most a distortion of the truth: I do make game products hoping to make money from them, but I've never made a product I didn't myself like for money), but Zak? I'll assume some people have made that claim, but personally I've heard far more people claim that Zak is some kind of "trust fund baby" than that Zak is in RPGs for cash.

But I think that most people I've run into who've heard of Zak think he's very much in it for his reputation, for his self-image, a belief that is reflected even by some posts in this thread. I've heard far more people saying that Zak is desperate to be seen as some kind of avant-garde great innovative thinker & artist, and to be admired by the kind of people who tend to admire that archetype. That he may or may not need money, but what he's really longing to achieve is respectabilite from exactly the demographic that instead fall for some of the very lefty-progressive "game designers" that have attacked and cancelled him over and over again through the years, and who lump him in with the "yr right wing bs" based people he so obviously looks down upon.

These theories are as ignorant as the theory i want money. And based on the same childish idea that somebody else's life has a lot to do with -you- the RPG people and some perception they want out of -you- rather than stuff that makes sense in their own life in a fairly ordinary way.

Anyone paying attention would realize i just want people the RPG community to stop smearing me and making up conspiracy theories about me (like the trust fund one, for example).

Now if you'll excuse me its Christmas Eve and i gotta watch Nosferatu.

Quote from: Zak S on Today at 12:23:10 AMAnyone paying attention would realize i just want people the RPG community to stop smearing me and making up conspiracy theories about me (like the trust fund one, for example).

Zak S one day found a genie lamp and rubbed it.  Out came the genie and offered him wishes.

"For my first wish I would like a highway to Mars," requested Zak.  "I always wanted to visit and becoming an astronaut seems like too much of an ordeal so I would just like to drive there."

The genie was thoughtfully silent for a moment before responding.

"This would require I rewrite the laws of physics and cause untold side effects with dire consequences.  In fact, it may well be beyond my ability.  Do you have another wish?"

Zak immediately responded with "I just want people in the RPG community to stop smearing me and making up conspiracy theories about me."

The genie gave a heavy sigh.

"This highway, do you want two lanes or four?"

Quote from: dvar on December 24, 2024, 05:07:30 AMZak's reputation was unjustly dragged through the mud based on misinformation spread by bad actors, and it's had a tangible, damaging impact.

In defamation law, there's a finding called "contextual truth." That is, one or more of the imputations may in fact be defamatory, but they're found to be of no effect in law since the other stuff we know to be true is so awful anyway. For example, there was a soldier Ben Roberts-Smith who, newspapers alleged, had abused his mistress and committed war crimes. The court found that it was proven on the balance of probabilities that he had committed at least some of the alleged war crimes, but that it was not proven that he'd abused his mistress. However, no damages was awarded for the unproven allegation, since the other allegations being proven simply dwarfed it. Once it was proven he'd kicked a bound man off a cliff and then followed him down and shot him, then souvenired his prosthetic leg for a drinking vessel, the story that he'd slapped around a mistress couldn't make him look any worse.

I've no interest in the details of the particular case of this guy under discussion in this thread. I haven't read it, and I don't care if he actually did any of the awful things he was accused of. But what I can say is that the reason I have no interest is that my opinion of the guy was already so low, it couldn't get any lower. That's why I didn't bother looking into it.

Whereas if, say, Pundit had been accused of some awful things I'd be curious. I think generally well of him, and if he were accused of some awful crime, I'd be interested to know whether it looked like he'd actually done it.

There was a time when saying someone was a promiscuous pornographer would have been defamatory. It would be thought to make them look bad. But this is behaviour the guy under discussion readily admits to, and is indeed proud of. I already thought he was scum. My opinion didn't get any worse when I heard the allegations.

This is the problem with living a morally defunct lifestyle. This is why the defamatory imputations were dangerous to him - because they were believable. I think it's better to live a life where people don't think you're scum, and where if something awful is said about you, people say, "Him? Surely not!" rather than, snort and say, "Figures."

Quote from: dvar on December 24, 2024, 05:07:30 AMThere's an important point to consider in this context. This isn't about abstract debates or theoretical constructs—it's about real consequences on someone's life. In this case, Zak's reputation was unjustly dragged through the mud based on misinformation spread by bad actors, and it's had a tangible, damaging impact.

There's proof that these claims were unfounded, yet some people still perpetuate the lies without acknowledging the truth that's come to light over time. Setting the record straight isn't about being overly legalistic—it's about correcting falsehoods and restoring fairness, even when it's a hard pill for some to swallow.

This is my understanding of the situation too, dvar.
I read all the paperwork. It's quite conclusive.

It's also very obvious that Zak is being targeted for harassment, as are anyone who supports him, by people who bring nothing else whatsoever to the online rpg community apart from intentional malice.

Zak has been on the defensive arguing for peace, truth, justice. He deserves respect for that.

Quote from: GnosticGoblin on Today at 06:48:52 AMZak has been on the defensive arguing for peace, truth, justice. He deserves respect for that.

Bullshit

He's no more tormented than any other but he has married being an insufferable prick to a persecution complex in a cocktail of unpleasantness that other's despise him for.

So he got hit in the "me too" movement.  So did lots of other guys.  There was no real evidence against him other than accusations, the same as every other high profile case like his.  (Weinstein case not withstanding, most of the high profile cases have been proven to be fraud.)  He was a big time supporter of the cancel culture and "believe all women" movement he got bit in the balls by.  He's a victim of the shit he was trying to do to others.  No one on this site cares.

I don't see him taking any responsibility for his actions.  I don't see him disavowing the ideology he was a part of that did this to him.  I don't see him trying to get along with those that didn't try to cancel him.  I don't see him trying to be a decent human to those I see him interact with.

Here, those that don't like him do so not because he got accused of something but because he insults and condescends everyone that doesn't figuratively felate him.  His own behavior in this thread is all the evidence of this I will need. 

Quote from: Zak S on Today at 12:23:10 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on Today at 12:07:39 AMOne thing Zak seemed to imply that I think he's wrong about is the suggestion that most gamers think he's doing something "for the money".

I often get accused of that (which is at most a distortion of the truth: I do make game products hoping to make money from them, but I've never made a product I didn't myself like for money), but Zak? I'll assume some people have made that claim, but personally I've heard far more people claim that Zak is some kind of "trust fund baby" than that Zak is in RPGs for cash.

But I think that most people I've run into who've heard of Zak think he's very much in it for his reputation, for his self-image, a belief that is reflected even by some posts in this thread. I've heard far more people saying that Zak is desperate to be seen as some kind of avant-garde great innovative thinker & artist, and to be admired by the kind of people who tend to admire that archetype. That he may or may not need money, but what he's really longing to achieve is respectabilite from exactly the demographic that instead fall for some of the very lefty-progressive "game designers" that have attacked and cancelled him over and over again through the years, and who lump him in with the "yr right wing bs" based people he so obviously looks down upon.

These theories are as ignorant as the theory i want money. And based on the same childish idea that somebody else's life has a lot to do with -you- the RPG people and some perception they want out of -you- rather than stuff that makes sense in their own life in a fairly ordinary way.

Anyone paying attention would realize i just want people the RPG community to stop smearing me and making up conspiracy theories about me (like the trust fund one, for example).

Now if you'll excuse me its Christmas Eve and i gotta watch Nosferatu.

No, sorry, one thing I've never been the slightest bit concerned with is having the trendy lefty pretentious twats giving a damn about me, right from the very start when I called them all Swine. Your argument is absurd. If I was you, I'd probably call it a lie. But somewhere along my educational path I learned the difference between opinion (however self-serving and misguided) and lies. I figure you probably desperately want to believe what you said, as part of your ongoing self-image triage, and you aren't actually saying something you consciously know to be untrue.